I thought he left the team after the first of these two runs? I remember people being impressed by the second one not just because it's super hard to make the championship game two years in a row, but also because they lost their best player. I could be misremembering though.

Kind of like the Bulls in '94.

Seven games against the Ewing Knicks in the semi-finals, wow.

The 2011 Mavs were a 1 star team - Lebron's Cavs would've beat them if he stayed

The Cavs already had a top 5 defense and were adding pieces every year (Mo in 09'.. Jamison in 10') - so they would've added another piece in 2011 and won, although Lebron can beat Dirk without adding another piece.

After winning in 2011, Lebron's Cavs would've entered 2012 as a deep champion and the top defense in the league - they would destroy the baby Thunder..

So lebron didn't need to team-hop folks - surely if he knew that a 1-star team would win the West in 2011, he might've stayed in Cleveland and won the easy ring that year.. the ring would've enhanced the Cavs' stature and perception, so they would be perceived as a juggernaut - 30 years later, people would go on forums and call the Cavs "stacked", like people do now with Jordan's Bulls
.

Ultimately, dirk did what young lebron thought he couldn't do in Cleveland (win as a 1-star team)..

So lebron should've stuck it out in Cleveland and won in 2011 - 2011 was his chance to face a 1-star team in Dirk - so he didn't even need to beat a super-team like Dirk did..

and the Cavs were already 60-win 1 seeds and the league favorite in 09' and 10', so surely they could've won in 2011, especially after adding another piece to their 60-win 1 seed. So lebron left right before everything was going to happen for him

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Cliffs


Dirk did what lebron thought was impossible - winning with a 1 star team - aka real karma

Dirk stuck it out in Dallas and beat a super-team, so lebron could've stuck it out in Cleveland and beaten the 1-star Mavs

His Cavs were already 60-win 1 seeds and the league favorite in 09/10, with further roster additions coming in 11' - so lebron left right before realizing his expectation.. his subsequent resume is therefore manufactured and distorted
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Nice lies, I’m glad you love fan fiction. The issue was these teams continued to fall apart against good teams in the playoffs. They won regular season games and got beat in the playoffs because the teams were poorly constructed for the playoffs where they can easily game plan against one star. See what’s happening with Giannis in Milwaukee now but it was worse in Cleveland. Not only did they show for many years they couldn’t get a real star to come in free agency or through a trade, they just couldn’t beat the multi star teams like Boston. They also didn’t have many good assets to trade.

Jamison wasn’t a star. Mo Williams was only an all star because he played with Lebron for the most part. Arguably the second best player against the Celtics was over the hill Shaq.

I’m sure Lebron would have loved Bosh and/or Wade to join up in Cleveland but I doubt it was happening. Additionally we’ve seen how incompetent the ownership in Cleveland has been without Lebron—failing repeatedly with a lot of high picks while how good Miami ownership/leadership has been with and without Lebron. We aren’t blind and neither is Lebron when it comes to poor decision making within his leadership team for his org. Seems like on three occasions already he’s helped lead a charge to getting a title team built around him and he’s done it now 2 years after joining. I’m pretty sure to most rationale observers that’s quite impressive.

I was really excited when the Cavs traded for Jamison. He was a local guy that I watched play in high school. He was an inefficient/ out of date player who could only do 1 thing mediocre at that stage in his career.


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But they were pieces, Jamison is obviously equivalent to Rodman or Pippen. The Cavs tried, but failed. I’m shocked Lebron decided to stay after the boozer incident.

I don't know about that narrative. Though as someone who enjoys stories more than states it does seem to me that the two most unexpected outcomes this century both involved the same teams, the Heat and Mavericks.

No doubt I have a tendency to lean too hard on W-L record to evaluate a team's strength, and many teams come playoff time aren't anything like they started the season in terms of injuries, acquisition, cohesion, and rotation.

But still...it's hard for me to look at either the 2006 Heat or the 2011 Mavs and think they were close to the best team. By most bystander's assessments, the Mavs were jobbed out of the 2006 title by some wtf refereeing. And it's hard to think of that Heat team being better than the Pistons, or that they even beat the Pistons. And as very good as Dallas was that year, it took an improbable three point play and overtime in game seven to beat the Spurs, a fantastic team that would win the title both the year before and the year after that. Just seemed like Dallas, the Spurs, and the Pistons were all title-worthy, yet the winner was...the Heat.

Have less of a cohesive recollection of 2011 to really speak to it as clearly, but it was the first year of the Heatles, and well they were obviously supposed to win, and the Mavs were there sort of unexpectedly. I recall they were good, but not the best in their conference, probably not even second best. But they got there, and it looked like that would be the end of their run for about the first 1.5 games or so. Then the script got flipped and they somehow won. Which is fine because they got their title, labron got some humility and got his rang the next year. Plus Dirk is awesome and Dallas got what was taken from them five years earlier. It all worked out. Avery Johnson may disagree but whatever.

Prior to this century I'd have to go back a ways to say the same thing, though 1999 was a weird, ugly, short, post-Jordan, pre-Lakers dynasty year that I can't really wrap my head around and would prefer to forget.

nobody would call a team with Anderson Varejao as the 2nd best as stacked.

also, Jamison sucked. the team got worse when he joined. many people on this very forum knew that Jamison would hurt the team.

One star teams in the last 40 years are ultra rare to title. Only teams off the top of my head are close to one star are as follows:

Raptors last year but I really think Siakam and Lowry but Kawhi was by far the best player in the playoffs.
2011 Mavs—dirk the star but terry was fantastic and Kidd, marion etc we’re stars in the past.
2004 pistons—really just a nasty starting lineup that Sheed took from great to title winning.
1994 rockets—Hakeem and a bunch of guys
Pistons had isiah and other very good players, again no real stars.

So since 1980, you’ve had 41 seasons of which 35 had two plus stars—some up to 4. Winning with 1 seems like a pipe dream. 3 of the 6 were the pistons who just had a great team without any superstars.

^^^ even if that were true, Dirk won a 1-star ring in a year that Lebron could've won - so lebron left that on the table

lebron's 1-seeded teams were already the league favorite for 2 years running and their 60-win roster would've added another all-star caliber player in 2011, just like 09' and 10'.

So lebron would've had an incredibly experienced and loaded league favorite in 2011 - a massive favorite over Dirk



you're simply excluding many 1-star runs.. Parker and Ginobili weren't stars in 03' - they weren't all-stars until 06' and contributed little compared to Duncan on the 03' run..

Similarly, pippen wasn't a star in 91' and had the biggest deficit anyone's ever had to their #1 option.. The 90's Bulls were considered 1-man teams at the time, despite pippen's all-nba accolades - pippen's weak stats were simply inflated by the winning spotlight.

In the playoffs, Jordan doubled pippen's scoring average and assisted 30% more often - he averaged 10-30 more than pippen in every series - no one in history had such a big gap over his 2nd option, so all 6 of Jordan's rings were 1-star teams, by any statistical measure

See the stats/proof below:




Nobody including Lebron had the massive gaps over his sidekick that MJ had (1-man team):


Gaps between 1st and 2nd option in various stat categories:


PLAYOFFS

11' Dirk'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
11' Terry....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031

93' Jordan... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
93' Pippen... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187

92' Jordan... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
92' Pippen... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048

91' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
91' Pippen... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 1.4........... 0.6............ 0.136

96' Jordan... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
96' Pippen... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122

97' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
97' Pippen... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090

98' Jordan... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
98' Pippen... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095



comparing sidekick stats while trying to 3-peat


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade'..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


So why the excuses for Lebron?

Pippen made the AS team in 1990, 1992-1997. Not a star is pretty much wanting. Agreed that Pippen wasn’t that amazing of a scorer but even in your example years he was second team all d. Do you think Pippen was that much worse in 1991 than 1990 or 1992? Seems like your wanting. Whatever the case the majority of the time they had top 50 all time player Pippen to go along with Jordan along with Horace and later Rodman/Kukoc.

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The gap between 11' Dirk and his 2nd option... versus the gap between MJ and Pip

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PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
11' Terry....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031

93' Jordan... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
93' Pippen... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187

92' Jordan... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
92' Pippen... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048

91' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
91' Pippen... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 1.4........... 0.6............ 0.136

96' Jordan... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
96' Pippen... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122

97' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
97' Pippen... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090

98' Jordan... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
98' Pippen... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095


Conclusion - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

^^^ TLDR: Dirk's BPM was 1.2 higher than his sidekick in the 2011 Playoffs, compared to 3 to 10 higher for MJ on the 6 title runs

Dirk's PER was 4.9 higher than his sidekick in the 2011 Playoffs, compared to 7 to 13 for MJ on the 6 title runs

You should do it for Lebron, 2 years ago in the playoffs it was 32.2 PER for Bron on 62% ts and 15.5 for love in the playoffs on 51.1%. Nance had a higher per but I wouldn’t consider him second fiddle.

Kyrie was 21.3/57% and Love 19.7/60% the year before vs 30.1/65% for Bron. Id argue the KD/curry warriors were quite better competition than most finals opponents.

Grunching but Pippen was on the Dream Team, lol that he wasn't a star.

We're talking about years the #1 option won

Beating Finals teams is impressive... Beating 2nd round winners, not so much

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Playoff Stats as #1 Options


92' LEWIS..... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp



But pippen wasn't a dream-teamer in 1988.

he averaged 8 points off the bench, while Oakley was the 2nd option (a rebounder)..

MJ carried these guys to 50 wins and the 3 seed in a conference that required a super-team to win it (not a 1-star conference like the 00's East)..

And they were competitive against Detroit despite 10 ppg from Pippen, so surely the"Piston-killer" would've won alongside MJ that year (FMVP Worthy), and then 3-peated with Coach Collins


In 1989, Jordan carried a 6 seed over the #1 SRS Cavs, who had 3 all-stars plus 20/5/5;Ron Harper.. that's a better team than lebron ever beat in the East, and Jordan beat them with a low seed...

Since the 89' Bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs, they would beat the #6 SRS Pistons in 07', or the #4 SRS Magic in 09'



Pippen was a 2nd option

He wasn't a 1st option Finals guy, aka the top tier of the 90's (Malone, Barkley, Shaq, MJ, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson)..

Pippen was on the next tier below, but overrated within that tier

For example, KJ was a better scorer, passer, leader, and routinely led 55-win teams to the WCF, including an upset of Magic's 1-seeded Lakers in 90'...

KJ also averaged 28/5/9 against Hakeem's Rockets in two 7 game series (94' and 95'), including two 45 point games and a legendary poster over Hakeem.

Similarly, Worthy led the Lakers numerous times in playoffs scoring, including 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF and 88' FMVP.

Guys like Worthy, KJ, Kemp, Payton, Reggie Lewis (above), Mullin, Dominique - TONS of guys that pippen ranks ahead of - they all reached much higher heights than pippen in the playoffs.

Guess it’s fun to try analyzing.
Could probably be any other subject imo .
Better go out drink beer and get fat ?
Yeah that too I guess ....

So, so, so much better. Thankfully though nothing stopping anyone doing both so...?

That’s cool and all - but Pippen ranks ahead of these guys for a reason. He’s the best player of all the them. Defense is a thing. I think Pippen and Payton are a good deal better than anyone else on that list. They’re in the tier 2 all-timers for me. The rest of the list is tier 3 or 4, maybe even 5 in Reggie Lewis’s case.


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If it was a legit argument, the Lakers could've won with Anthony Davis scoring like pippen, since davis has even better defense than pippen to make up for it.

But we all know what would happen if AD averaged 16 ppg with weak efficiency like Pippen did for his career, or 17 on 41% in the 96-98 playoffs, or 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons, or 19 on 42% in 6 Finals, or 16 on 40% in 4 ECF and 2 Finals...

The Lakers would've been swept by Dame Dollar in the 1st Round if AD scored like Pippen, so the defense argument means nothing.. fortunately for the bulls, they had the goat offensive player, so they still had goat offenses despite weak offensive help.. otoh, Bron-ball can't be a #1 offense despite exponentially more offensive help, because it doesn't use the best strategy (ball movement)



Career Rankings of Teammates


PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185


OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107



WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129


Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250


Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250
Horace Grant......NR top 250


BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards steals experts like Stockton and defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:

Quote:

What players were most impacted by the changes?

Including playoffs, only one player saw his career BPM change by 3.0 or more. That'd be the aforementioned Stockton, who was 3.5 under the old system and is now 6.7. He's aided by the changes in the way the assist and rebound terms interact. Further, the old system said "no rebounds = bad defender." BPM 2.0 says "elite steals, good defensive teams = good defender."

When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

It's hopeless 3ball.

Its neck and neck and there is no more documentaries Jordan cN release.

Delicious.

6 of Lebron's Finals appearances were conference-dependant

he'd have 4 Finals appearances if he played out West for his career, since he obviously can't get past the 6 teams that beat him in the Finals - that's why winning the finals MATTERS, otherwise your appearance was conference-dependant

Ultimately, 4/4 out West isn't better than 4/10 in mostly the East, but it isn't worse, because the 6 Finals losses show those appearances were conference-dependant (they sort of cancel out)

Hope that helps

And of course 4/4 < 6/6.. not even close.. so they aren't neck-and-neck in winning, production rate/stats, or accolades.. this guy needed 17 years to get a fraction of the winning and accolades, thus proving he didn't do something right compared to MJ lol... Longevity actually works against him... Carry on the fraud tho