Lebron's all-nba is like a naked flush draw - it comes with nothing else - no all-defense and not even top 10 scoring

Otoh,

Jordan's all-nba comes with top 5 DPOY and scoring title, aka goat caliber on both sides of the ball

That's night and day... Lebron's no defense and top 15 scoring doesn't compare to top 5 DPOY and scoring title (Jordan), so it's objectively wrong to compare them



An argument that includes preseason odds is better than your no arguments

Again, there aren't any facts that show Lebron is goat - there's only facts that show Lebron is inferior, like the trend of him turning preseason favorites into Finals underdogs - these facts are better than your no facts



PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP include everything

Lebron simply can't overcome his significant deficit in scoring and efficiency per possession, or how Jordan's burden always dwarfed his teammates.



It isn't good for a SG to get 10 rebounds and more than bigs, so rebounds is a positional stat and Jordan is the better offensive rebounder anyway




Lebron has low assist creation compared to MJ, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Bird, etc because he doesn't create assists for teammates by being an assist target (off-ball).

Otoh, guys like MJ, Bird, and company created more assists by distributing and creating assists for teammates (being an assist target, aka off-ball).

So they had higher TEAM assists and a better ball movement brand that yielded better team ceilings/Finals record.




Did Horry win as his team's best player?

In the modern era/3-pointer history, who has the most rings as the best player?

The goat.. that's who

And he won every ring with a true 2nd option that had a low statistical peak and averaged far less in every playoffs, while everyone else in the top 10 enjoyed elite 1st option sidekicks, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekick.




* Scoring

* Overall production rate (PER, etc)

* Clutch frequency, burden and efficiency

* Winning in modern era as the best player (6 rings)

* Winning frequency in modern era (6/15)

* Team Ceiling (6/6)

* Winning with true 2nd option

(jordan won every ring with a true 2nd option that had a low statistical peak and averaged far less in every playoffs, while everyone else in the top 10 enjoyed elite 1st option sidekicks, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekick)
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Yeah 3ball is officially broken gg you did good work but time to retire

1. Lebron
2. Kareem

These two sentences are brought to you by a dude going hard about his high IQ and amazing logical abilities.

I couldn't believe he actually brought Robert Parish into the GOAT discussion seriously.

Lazy effort 3ball.

Lebron has been top 15 in scoring 17 times including first once, and top 4 12 times. He's also been all d 6 times.

Considering he's almost always turned up his scoring and other stats in the playoffs, you should be proud not nasty but that's beyond you.

My Matt R logic bot tells me if he only played 10 seasons he’d be in the discussion, 18 is just too many.

The more times I read those 2 sentences, the sadder I feel for Matt R. for actually uttering it. He clearly didn't think things through when he wrote it out.

Jordan had a 3 year peak between 91-93 that I don't think any player has reached yet in a 3 year straight peak.

Although Larry Bird from 1984-1986 winning 3 MVP's in a row is close.
Shaq 2000-02 is up there but he didn't take regular season seriously.
LeBron winning 4 MVPs out of 5 years is also insanely dominant.

2009 LeBron
2012 LeBron
2013 LeBron
2018 LeBron

Are 4 years I would match up against any one peak wise. But they didn't happen in a row.



And LOL one more time for the Robert Parish argument: Longevity doesn't matter because Robert Parish had longevity but nobody considers him the goat.

They would consider Robert Parish in GOAT conversations if Robert Parish won 4-5 MVP's, made 17 All-NBA teams (14 1st-teams), had 40 000 points, went to 10 finals as the best player of the team.

Like lol Robert Parish argument.

Tim Duncan is in many top 5 all time lists because of his incredible longevity and productivity during that many seasons.


Kareem is a near consensus top 3 GOAT behind Jordan and LeBron because of his insane longevity and high level play for 20 seasons. Some old timers think Kareem is the GOAT for his peak dominance in the 70s and partially in the 80s and his sheer longevity and stats accumulated.


Poor one out RIP for "longevity doesn't matter" arguments against LeBron.

Not to mention 11k rebounds and 11k assists.

I can’t wait to see klay coming back and cleaning out the nba again if they were goat team because one season they did 73 games .
With KD they were so much worst right ?
And because they lost and because they were behind 3-1 in another series that same year (!) just prove they were actually much more beatable than the 72 wins bull ...

That narrative of weight and height make me laugh .
About Shaq at 7feet 1/ 325 pounds .
Wilt at 7feet 1 /275 pounds
Olajuwon 7 feet / 255
Tim Duncan 6 feet 11 / 250

Your talking like LeBron is a never seen specimen ...
Which at the end does not mean they aren’t better than MJ

Shouldn’t Duncan be top 5 when you take Into account the same LeBron « accomplishments »?

Duncan had a MUCH higher competition all his career than LeBron ever had in the east ....early lakers , warriors like lebron , etc )
Duncan beat LeBron at 36 and lost miraculously at 37 vs prime LeBron (goat?) and Miami heat .
He totally destroy LeBron in another final in 2007 ( actually is 2-1 in finals vs LeBron ) just proving how bad the east was LeBron could actually reach a final .
I mean please in 2007 he beat twice a 41 win team and a 53 win team and some accuse MJ of having weak final opponent while praising LeBron to beat that ???

Seriously speaking competition quality without ignoring the big picture is ridiculous.

Duncan didn't beat Lebron by himself, the Spurs did. Duncan was the 3rd leading scorer on that Spurs team in the finals and Kawhi won the FMVP. This is the issue with you guys, you have a hard time separating players from their teams.

Lebron averaged 28/7/4 on 57% shooting (67% TS%) and 52% from 3 that series (79% from the line). He played pretty well, his team just wasn't as efficient as they normally are (Wade especially--50% TS%).

Duncan played for a great team/org and likely had 3 other HOFers on that team (Parker and Manu are weak HOFers but will get in due to international stuff) with a first ballot HOF coach.

^^^ he did everything that year except CLOSE

Specifically, he lost 3 fourth quarter leads in the ECF and the series turned in the critical Game 4 OT, where Dwight dominated and Lebron laid a massive egg - this decided the series.

Overall, Lebron shot 30% on jumpshots in the 4th quarter and showed the worst defensive leadership in a big series EVER, so he lost as a massive favorite - the Magic were one of the 5 biggest underdogs to win a playoff series, and they were missing their starting point guard.

Ultimately, lebron lost as the favorite from 2009-2011 because he was bad in the clutch.




Wade was still top 5 in the league for PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP. - an elite 1st option and top 5 in the league.

Furthermore, Lebron only averaged 5 more than Wade in the Finals, and still had Bosh - so it was hardly the kind of carry-job and defensive attention that MJ faced.. A cute imitation though..

With elite 1st options playing 2nd and 3rd option, Lebron wasn't required to consistently bailout his team on possessions like the triangle required from MJ - so Jordan had a different caliber of responsibility to be a "closer", especially alongside a true 2nd option and no 3rd option.




Lol, are you serious?

Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games of the Finals while teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit (it was 2011 all over again).

Ultimately, Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus requiring Allen to force Game 7.. Lebron was a net negative for the series (negative net rating) and not dominant at all (25 on 45% overall).




Butler and Kawhi won the East with 1-star teams, while guys like Iverson, Kidd, Lebron and Dwight won with 1-star teams from 01-09' - so only Lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted a trend of 1-star teams winning the East, thus reducing the impressiveness of Lebron's 18' run.. it's pretty standard to carry a team through the weak East, especially with the best 2nd option in the conference.

And who cares about carry-jobs against weak teams?

Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he has zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing.. If he doesn't get a good showing from his sidekick, he can't beat good teams and infact gets swept or blown away (record amount).

Again, the facts only show him to be inferior to Jordan.
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No player beat a team alone , not even LeBron , so ?
Could of LeBron played better to win when see his numbers vs those warriors ?
Seem so to me but as usual , if LeBron fails it’s because of his teammates but if he wins it’s all about him ....

Fwiw, 28/7/4 are weak numbers for a goat ....
It’s not bad , it’s just normal for a great player .

From my POV , jordan lost more because of pippen (90 & 95) than he won because of him ...

Some should really start realize jordan just needed any good ( not great) players around him to succeed as a team.

Just look at 1984 ffs ...
Olympic team

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984...asketball_team

« Prior to the Olympics, the team played eight games against NBA All-Star teams including Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Isiah Thomas and Mark Aguirre and won all eight ».

Not 1 game , all of it !

Fwiw , whom are you matching pippen with to win a title beside MJ if he was so great ?

Just getting tired of hearing jazz were weak because they were old , pistons were weak because they were old .

Spurs were great but 36/37 Duncan , genobili 35/36, vs prime LeBron goat it’s an accomplishment for LeBron ???

MJ was significantly worse in the 1996 Finals...averaging 27/5/4 on 53 TS%. Not GOAT? What do you think the difference was?

It wasn’t Pippen specifically but rather a elite wing who could score and defend as well as a good coach and roster. Forget hypotheticals - we have demonstrable, hard data that heroball MJ (pre PJax, Pippen, Grant) was unable to win in the playoffs. Literally 1-9 without Pippen in the playoffs and it wasn’t because he wasn’t an elite player...far from it, the guy was insanely sick player. His two best scoring years (86 and 87) he averaged a bonkers 36/5/5/3/1.6 over 2 seasons on 50%+ FG and had an 11.9 BPM....it resulted in getting swept in the playoffs, then barely beating the Cavs in the first round and getting waxed by Detroit. Turns out you can’t win on your own no matter how elite you are.

yep

Because that's who they were? Again, I think this is hard for you to understand but there's a difference between, say, a career BPM of -2.0 and a career BPM of 0.5 because the replacement level is roughly -2.0. You don't get to be play in the NBA if you're consistently below that bar. So someone who had a career BPM of 0.5 could've had a decent stretch where they were substantially better - it's much more difficult for someone with a BPM of -2.0 to have had a long stretch where they were consistently better. And if you examine the careers of those players, that's pretty much you would find.

You seem not to understand the difference between using stats that are misleading and using stats that are representative. I posted their career stats because they were representative of who they were in 2015. TT was 23, Delly was 24, Shump was 24 - they weren't even in their peak in 2015 and we're talking about players who never played past their physical prime. Mozgov never played in the league outside of his athletic prime either.

I didn't take the peak BPM of Lebron's opponents.

By this standard, the Hawks team had 4 great players and won 60 games in a much tougher league.

What are you even talking about? The BPM was just a starting point for that tangent - I explained in detail what happened to each of these players without Lebron. Do you disgree that in 2015, they were regarded as competent role players, but outside JR Smith, not one of them has ever even been a decent role player on a winning team? You have this weirdly autistic view of what stats mean (the whole Shaq tangent for instance) but the point is that you should use them when they reflect the underlying reality, but not blindly follow them if they don't.

Yikes, this is another team that wouldn't make the playoffs in today's NBA.

I already addressed this:

In other words, Malone/Stockton/Hornacek weren't defying age in the late 90's because of their own individual greatness, most the greats from their era stayed great in the late 90's even though they were old because the game wasn't evolving and was likely lacking in talent. My understanding is that basketball kind of became less popular over the course of the 70's and this trend was only reversed by the Magic/Bird rivalry - this may have contributed to the weakness in the talent pool in the 90's (there's going to be 15-20 year lag between popularity and effect on the talent pool).

This is an incredibly dishonest take from the side that's going on about Finals records and such nonsense.

Is this the series where the Suns tried to have Dan Majerle and Danny Ainge guard Michael Jordan and realized having the 6-1 180lbs Kevin Johnson guard Michael Jordan straight up is their best option defensively? This was their starting 5:

Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Richard Dumas
Charles Barkley
Mark West

I mean come on now, that would be one of the worst defenses in the league today and every superstar wing could drop 40 on that defense whenever they felt like it.

Age
Kyrie Irving with Lebron: 22-24
Kyrie Irving after Lebron: 25-28

Most players play better in their age 25-28 seasons than they did in age 22-24 seasons. Also, Brad Stevens seems to make most players look better than they are (consider everyone on the Celtics team in 15-16). Also, the Celtics have now made the ECF 3 times in the past 4 seasons - the only season where they missed was the one season where Kyrie was around and healthy in the playoffs (and he was instrumental in ensuring that the Celtics missed the ECF).

https://youtu.be/VkvTLOhm-TQ

Lebron confirmed not clutch in this series.

Oh he also averaged 38.5, 8.3, 8.0.

591TS on 38.8USG

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