curious what you mean. Are you saying he didn't try to foul him? If not, why do you think that?

Only person who will know is him because it wasn't like Roy Keanes tackle. Even if he did mean to foul him he didn't want to end his career

Agreed 100% with this.

I just watched the highlights of the game again. How was did Adebayor not get a penalty? It was so obvious

I need to dl it and watch it.

I thought they said just the season when was this a career ender?

I dont think I said that, my point was to highlight how much the game is cleaned up now in comparison to the past not that I want a total return to it. I agree totally the two players going in fully committed full on challange is what gets the blood pumping as well as good skill or goals, but a lot of that has been lost and to me at times the balance is to much in the favour of the on the ball player. I agree again though that the refs have to be more consistant.

I injury yesterday is horrific, I didnt see the tackle thank god just the pictures after which are bad enough. Having said that it doesnt mean the game needs changing cos of it, unfortunatley its a risk all footballers take broken legs are an injury that can happen in football, yesterdays was one of the worst ever along with the Coventry player years ago but I think its the first bad one I have seen for a couple of seasons which I think highlights the change in the game.

Wenger is one of the masters of moaning rhetoric he is saying stuff to try and get his players more protection and get decisions from the refs in games to come, deep down I am sure he knows that its just the way it is and his team has to be strong and learn to cope with it even if he doesnt like it.

Ah this tackle has been blown out of all proportion.

The guy was late, simple as. He's not a dirty player afaik and theres no way its as bad as was made out it was just unfortunate that he caught his standing foot. You watch football long enough it happens. David Busst, Djibril Cisse twice etc etc.. Its awful whats happened to Eduardo and I feel awful for him but that IS football.

Arsene Wenger on the otherhand just reinforces the fact that hes one of the biggest spoilt, whinging pricks in football by making those remarks in the first place. The guy is such a hypocrit its untrue. Gallas last week, for example nice cheap shot there (Nani prob deserved a few words though). Also, Eboue on Downing/Taylor a few weeks back v Boro.. absolutely disgusting both times. Amazingly Wenger doesnt see either but he KNOWS straight away that Taylor tried to break Eduardo'sd leg and should be banned from the game for life. Being emotional doesnt give you the right to say things like just because you're upset, its plain and simple defamation and he's abusing his position.

Anyway, In other Premier League related news...

Lets all laugh at Newcastle... 'One Kevin Keegan, there's only one Kevin Keegan!'

The speed of the EPL makes it the best league in the world to watch and tough tackles are an essential part of having a fast game. I watch Serie A from time to time and the players there are technically superior but its just sooo slow sometimes its painful to watch.

Arsene Wenger has a point about teams kicking Arsenal off the park but if he wants respect for his comments he has to start accepting the flaws in his own team (crowding the ref every time he has a decision to make for a start). Gallas does not have the right attitude to be captain either. But Arsenal and Man Utd play the best football in the league and are my favourite teams to watch even though Arse have one English player. Go Theo!

This discussion needs that pic of Vinnie Jones squeezing Gazzas balls to lighten the mood.

Whenever they show on tv that owner who turns up in a Toon shirt for every game but you know would sell the club in one second flat if he got an offer puts me on tilt. Foreign owners ftw.

This isn't the first time an Arsenal player has had a career threatening injury recently after a disgusting tackle. It happened to Diaby like 2 seasons ago

This is the typical english ignorance. Yes being well organised is exactly what's needed to close a quality gap but most of the teams in the premier league are the exact opposite of that. Making sliding tackles in midfield is the exact opposite of that.
The example you use Wimbleon. That was way back in 1988. That's a long time ago and football has changed dramatically since then. It's not even close to being a relevant example.
Even in a cup competion where variance is higher nothing similar could take place today.
Since then except for two occasions every FA Cup has been won by Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool.

And the claim that such tactics are working and have worked in the past against Man U and Arsenal are a complete myth too. Who is consistently dominating?
This year Arsenal has lost ONE game? Last time they won they went undefeated!
Yeah "riling up those nancy foreign boys" really does the job...

To compare with the second best league, the Spanish, since the collapse of several Serie A teams anyway, no team since Real Madrid in 1989 has had less than 4 loses and in 15 of the last 17 seasons the winner has had more than 5 loses.
That includes tallies of 7 (several seasons) 8, 10 and even 11 defeats.
In the Premier League the most defeats the champion has finished with has been 6 and that has only happened three times.

The typical match between a top team in England and a lesser team is often the perfect example of how in the modern game the mythical english team spirit won't take you very far when it's combined with complete tactical ineptitude, poor discipline and misguided physical play.
It really is pathetic how easy the top teams in England have had it for many years now and in large part it's down to the attitude, and all the flaws that come with it, displayed in your post.

I think Bolton have a decent record against Arsenal in recent seasons and Blackburn the last couple of seasons have a decent record against them as well. The fact is for most of the second and third tier teams the only way to try and get points out of the top 4 is to get men behind the ball, get stuck in and try and frustrate the top teams, trying to out football them is totally pointless as they will totally pick you off. However class tells which is why the top 4 have been pretty consistantly the same for the past number of years. For most teams matches against the top 4 you write off as getting 0 points if you pick up the odd point here and there against them its a bonus.

The large part the top teams have had it so easy since the EPL began in its current form is more down to money than anything else, the teams that got in the Champions league had a huge financial advantage over the rest of the league so could get in the top players and the top wages, on top of that though Arsenal and Man Utd have managers capable of building winning squads. Obviously the last couple of seasons a load more clubs have had investment but the gap between the top and bottom clubs has never been greater.

Looking at my team Sunderland if we manage to survive realisically it will be at least 5 years before we can consistantly challange for a top 6 place, in the past it could be done in a few seasons.

People say it is impossible to break into the top 4. Arsenal were a mid-table team pre-wenger

if by mid table team you mean only three times since 1988 they have finished outside the top 4 (and in one of those seasons they won the cup double), then yeah, they were a mid table team.

Yeah two seasons in the ten years preceding him and one of them they won two cups rest of the time they were top six, you have heard of George Graham assume?

lol I see some of you were having fun in this thread last night.

Good to see Mr Wenger saw sense when he calmed down and retracted his comments it was after all a very badly timed tackle but no way was it malicious.

These on the other hand are,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fevywV4XP14


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SyIpv06fg



It's a fact of life footballers break their legs,ankles,arms, swallow their tongue etc anybody who cant handle that or "was gonna play a ton of hands but couldnt because they were tilted by that tackle" needs to start watching golf or tennis or some other non contact sport.

Arsenal would no doubt have been a top team no matter what.
They had the back four, Wright and Bergkamp for starters but it's a little scary to think about just how many titles in my opinon Man U would have won if Wenger hadn't arrived.
United had a generation of great talent, Ferguson had made the early key signings, Cantona and Schmeichel, and they were rapidly becoming the richest club in the world.

In general terms the situation was something like this:

Liverpool had their own generation of great talent but a manager who I think you can say unlike Ferguson, just wasn't a winner.
A crime they didn't win at least one title though.

Newcastle had an awesome attacking team, money to buy star players AHEAD of Man U ,for a short time at least but in hindsight a defence too neglected to win championships.
And following their great run they ruined everything by making one disaster signing, both of players and managers, after another.

Leeds had basically given away the most valuable player in the english football for the next few years to Man U.

With Blackburn it was clear very soon after they won the league that they would NOT be able to compete in the long term.

Chelsea were becoming good by signing older stars still good enough to compete and win trophies but not with a lot left in the tank and not what you need to consistently challenge a young hungry United team.

Arsenal I think was a team stuck in the Graham era and Bruce Rioch was definitely not the person with the vision or creativity to challenge a Man U becoming more powerful everyday. You needed someone like Arsene Wenger to happen.

Wenger did so many things right and still does that the list seems endless almost but in short it's something like this:
He brought Bergkamp to the next level. He had been a failure in Inter and people were already starting to think he wasn't what Arsenal needed. Under Wenger's guidance he took it to an almost absurd level at times. Definitely a Top 3 player in the world for a few seasons.

While making big money selling an immature not ready for years to come Nicolas Anelka to Madrid, he invented Henry as a forward/striker. He had been a wing in Juventus and before that in Monaco. How crucial that was simply cannot be overestimated.

Perhaps even more importantly though he managed to get Patrik Vieira from Milan for nothing.
Maybe the best and most effective player of his generation who would eventually also become the most succesful.
Just a monster champion of a player through and trough and it was Wenger who created him.
And that's not even getting started on what he has done with this current team.
While Ferguson has been able to spend hundreds of millions on talent already destined to become some of the best in the world, Rooney and Ronaldo, Wenger brings in, to rule the world, unknowns Hleb, Fabregas and Toure.

Tactically he also did all the right things. While someone like Houllier, Evans replacement in Liverpool, was way way too conservative to ever win something like the premier league but ideal for high percentage chances in cup competitions, in some ways similar to Benitez now, Wenger created the best attack in english football and at the same time stayed loyal to an experienced efficient defensive unit that many had already deemed to old.
Basically he created or enforced an ideal style to beat the old fashioned still widespread english style.
Which is undisciplined, often too fast for their own and flawed by poor organisation both defensively and in attack.
That some of these teams actually try to play a possession game just makes it easier for the very good teams.
There is some hope though I think.
Tottenham has been doing the right things for a while now. Both when it comes to managers and players.
Aston Villa also has a solid team plus a good manager and City (with money now) did the right thing when hiring Sven.
Sven, Hans Backe and Grip are heads above most of the managerial in the premier league.

But too get back on topic, the point is that Wenger did all the right things at a time when everyone else was making mistakes.
If he hadn't, then I think United could very well have won every title until something like Abramovich/Mourinho would eventually happen.

Post George Graham Arsenal weren't very good

Theres alot been said about refs being inconsistant but to be fair to them things happen fast and they only get one shot at making the right decision. If you throw in an individuals interpretation of what they just saw it gets more difficult for every ref to come up with the a standard decision for many, many differnt occurances. (i accept they get some really obv ones badly wrong)

Whats the alt? Its been debated to death and i think its widely accepted that video replays would solve the problem.

If we have replays half our enjoyment as supporters goes out of the game. No longer are we debating a dodgy decision be it a penalty, free kick/throw in that led to a goal, a ball not crossing the goal line etc and so-on.

This thread would be alot duller and what are we going to talk about in the pub? The barmaids ass is a FINE topic but theres not alot of mileage in it really.

LOL, its all been said before.

I love the inconsistancy. It brings out the best quotes from the managers and causes the most entertaing arguments.

And thats a very good post by Bjorn

does anybody closer to the action know why convey suddenly can't even get on the substitute's bench for reading? their losing streaks tilt me to no end, especially since the lone american outfield player isn't even playing, but john freaking oster is.

Ah I actually remember some good performances from Sunderland against Man Utd, in the early 90s I guess it was.
I remember Gray was the manager. I think they even won once.

But yes of course the money is the most important issue. Tv rights and champions league changed everything.
But similar things happened in all the major leagues. Even in lesser leagues the original teams that qualified for the first champions league had financial advantages for years to come.

But in all the different leagues there have been 4 or 5 teams much richer than the rest. It's not something that's an english phenomenon.
I'm actually pretty sure that since the premier league started the funds, of the avr. premier league team have been much greater than the avr. italian or spanish team.
All to do with the massive tv deals with Sky.

Serie A unfortunately now because of the various scandals and economic collapses is also hit by wide gaps between the few top teams and lesser teams.
I really miss the days when it had at least seven truly great teams. That was my all time favorite league. Late 80s serie A to up to the late 90s.
It was just one life and death match after another.

The premier league IS probably my favorite right now. 4 great teams, a few very good ones and a lot of decent ones. I just get tilted when I watch team after team almost TRY, the tactics ARE that bad yes, to be at the recieving end of a severe beating whenever they face Man United or Arsenal.

Cant see Spurs in Rome visiting the Pope, They`re Jewish not Catholic.

Unless their motives were sinister of course. Ah i see it now, so they`ve turned up armed to the teeth to do the Pope over and He`s run them back to North London? Yeah Catholics are Badass.

Its

The ****ty man united etc. etc
(as they historically have a large Catholic following)


Bjorn, pretty insightful stuff. Is your job somehow football related? Journalist maybe?

If my malicious you mean that he meant to snap his legbones, no I don't think he meant to. I think he wanted to get in a heavy challenge early in the game and perhaps put the Crozilian off his game. He didn't try to break his leg, but he wanted to make his presence felt and dish out some pain. I guess you could say he was unlucky that this was one of those extreme rare cases were instead of the opposition player rolling in agony for a few secs and then continuing the game he actually might have ended the guys career.

I've read and heard plenty of pundits today saying it shouldn't even have been a red card. Mind boggling to me. The FIFA laws of the game state that a player must be sent off if he commits "serious foul play".

And what do FIFA define "serious foul play" as? Well, they state "A tackle, which endangers the safety of an opponent, must be sanctioned as serious foul play."

I would love to hear Platt, Bruce, Gray and Kelly justify how Taylor's tackle didn't endanger Eduardo's safety.
Spoken like someone who is not emotionally invested. I was genuinely pissed off yesterday. Angry that Edu will not play for a year and in worst case scenario will never play football at the same level again.

Angry that Gael Clichy lost his head in injury time.

Angry that the ref gave a penalty that wasn't, even though Clichy should have never given him that option in the first place.

I moved to England to play poker follow Arsenal. I sat through one of the most embarrassing performances I can remember on Old Trafford, freezing my ass off, last weekend. I was disappointed after that but still had a decent night out in Manchester. After yesterdays game I was not in a good frame of mind to play good poker. I was pissed off and disappointed.

I'm going to Milano in a week and will probably witness us crash out of the CL.

For some people I'm sure football is just entertainment like any other, but some of us are a little more invested in it than that and our mood actually is affected by what happens to our team.

QFT