Even as the resident advanced stats skeptic, I think this is largely either hyperbolic or wrong. (Also, DRB% isn't a super great stat, imo.)

The problem is that we (both here and in the larger "intellectual" basketball community) don't have a very systematic understanding of how these stats work, what they measure, and most importantly, what they don't. We all know that box score based stats are not capturing a lot of stuff that is material to the game, but somehow forget this when these stats are rolled up into one uber stat.

The reason that APM is such an interesting stat is that it has the potential to capture "intangibles" but it's still both messy as **** and is more limited in application than a lot of it's proponents either realize, or admit. (Even aside from small sample size/large error problem, it's still mainly measuring a player's effectiveness in the role he is playing.)

you're right, he's not as good. he's been better!

Labron is easily the most valuable defensive wing of all time ....

His versatility has been properly showcased this year, amazing

i always love when epi/tut say "stats are worthless" like stats dont mean anything when most of them have some merit/value. really the only ones taht are poor at measuring what they don't are the bulk numbers without context, like fg%, ppg, and rpg. (bpg and spg too obv)

Should have put a question mark after Matthews, as I don't really know. Plus, Camby, being Camby, has missed a ton of time (39% of minutes so far this season, only slightly more than Dante Cunningham)

barring injury, lakers are going get to the nba finals like 80% of the time methinks

also, leaving pgs off defensive teams so we can cram more wings on is lame imo

just because wing defense is more important than PG defense doesn't mean it isn't necessary - we've seen even elite defensive SFs have trouble guarding great offensive PGs

WOW, with ~5 guys who can defend+, im SHOCKED the Suns are 24th in defense!!! it's almost like you are making things up!

Per secret stats, just to remove bias...
The Suns have one above average defender. His name is Grant Hill. EVERYONE ELSE IS AVERAGE OR BELOW AVERAGE.

I'd say Steve and Vince are less-bad at defense then others think, (they're closer to average then they are poor) but Frye (god awful, may be worst in the league), Dudley (not good at all), Hakim/Childress/Robin (below average) all suck.

You guys are just leveling when you're mentioning Gasol and all-defensive team right? Or are you talking about Marc Gasol?

yeah because buckets' 3000 career minutes vs belinelli's 4000 isnt enough? GTFO you re re.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7AriXMOjsk

Eye test tells me he's pretty good against people not named Dwight Howard and possibly Zach Randolph.

Bulk numbers at least do a perfect job of capturing what they are intended to capture. The same cannot be said for a stat that tries to be a "one number stat", specially those whose formula is not open to the public, those are 100% worthless, even if at some point in the future their authors can prove it's validity.


It's mind bottling to me that intelligent people give apm a second thought for the reasons stated above. If you have no idea how the stat values any part of the game of basketball how can you use it to better understand basketball? You can't, all you can do is look at a ranking of players by their apm and go "yeah, that seems about right"

Dude, I'm not saying the Suns are good at defense, they're ****ing terrible. I was just pointing out who is actually ok, and who is not. Ok so maybe I overrated Frye, but I think I described everyone else pretty accurately.

Labron tho

lbj was my starting F. way to read.

Grant Hill took some strong, well-deserved shots at Jalen in that editorial. Duke continues to irk and perturb.

I think the elite sg/sf defenders do a better job of defending pg's (and generally being more valuable in team D) than any pg in the league, I think that was also Bobbo's point when he made that list

Ya I agree he's very good on D

Not all team tho. Cmon

i think that was bobbo's point too, but im not sure its one that i agree with

uhh, who? And more importantly, which PGs are able to guard these super elite PGs?

historically it's been the LeBrons, the Bowens, the Battiers of the world who have shut down great PGs. It certainly hasn't been a PG!

Pau Gasol is a really, really good defender.

so he makes a nice play... good proof.

++ Lamarcus Aldridge

if i had to guess, i would have said gortat is above average defensively

but ya, im not making any other suns above average predictions

no, you didnt. because if all those suns were actually better at defense, the suns would be better at defense.