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Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb

01-10-2014 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool
Definitely going to take front office buy-in. Management would have to make sure that that the coaches they hire are receptive to the data. Agreed it would be wasted if the coach wasn't receptive (i.e the Andy Reid anecdote from upthread).

Just frustrating as a fan, but when the median fan is Goodie maybe fans get the coaches they deserve.
I'm pretty f'ing happy we got the coach we deserve. PRETTY F'ING HAPPY.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 12:57 PM
idk man 0 super bowls w/o cheating, losing w/l record without top 5 QB of all time, questionable 4th down decision making at best. you sure about that?

Last edited by GeoffRas22; 01-10-2014 at 12:58 PM. Reason: this trolling thing is fun
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 12:58 PM
Makes it a lot easier to appeal to authority, I'll give you that
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22
idk man 0 super bowls w/o cheating, losing w/l record without top 5 QB of all time, questionable 4th down decision making at best. you sure about that?
Yes.

Also, really happy you said top 5 QB of all time. Pretty sure that's a higher ranking than most non-patriots fans would give Brady on here.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodie
Why do you think this hasn't happened yet? I mean, there HAS to be some professional or college coach that believes in the numbers and math as much as the folks on this forum do. Why haven't they been able to get the point across given that you guys think it's so obvious? They all want to win and they're jobs depend on them winning. You really think it's just being stubborn? That seems unlikely.
Risk aversion, habit, and the fact that most football fans (and some coaches) have your level of intellect and curiosity.

Punting on 2nd and 3rd down used to be routine many years ago. In the future many 4th down decisions viewed as routine today will be mocked and laughed at the same way we'd mock and laugh at it today.

Its just a matter of how long it takes to weed out the luddites.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodie
I'm pretty f'ing happy we got the coach we deserve. PRETTY F'ING HAPPY.
It was a general, non-Patriots specific comment, but we dont really deserve BB in that sense. As you know from attending home games, our fan base kind of sucks.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodie
Why do you think this hasn't happened yet? I mean, there HAS to be some professional or college coach that believes in the numbers and math as much as the folks on this forum do. Why haven't they been able to get the point across given that you guys think it's so obvious? They all want to win and they're jobs depend on them winning. You really think it's just being stubborn? That seems unlikely.
LOL. Really? The bolded is exactly what it is. Stupid and stubborn. Mainly just stubborn and LOL old man norms.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:13 PM
But they're jobs depend on them winning.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmayB
LOL. Really? The bolded is exactly what it is. Stupid and stubborn. Mainly just stubborn and LOL old man norms.
How exactly do you know this? Are you even remotely qualified to make such a statement?
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:23 PM
Occam's Razor says the crux of the issue is coaches are set in their ways and outside or statistical input threatens their identity and job worth, mixed with a heavy dosage of risk aversion, as opposed to some secret info that the coach thinks will come into play specifically on 4th downs

It comes down to the coach looking out for #1 (consciously or sub-consciously)
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by da_fume
But they're jobs depend on them winning.
Ya, people are never short-sighted
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:26 PM
lol goodie
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
Ya, people are never short-sighted
You don't get it, they aren't people they are jobs.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodie
How exactly do you know this? Are you even remotely qualified to make such a statement?
I understand most basic math and realize that coaches objectively fail at a lot of fourth down decisions/basic game management stuff so yeah I think I'm qualified enough to make that statement.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmayB
I understand most basic math and realize that coaches objectively fail at a lot of fourth down decisions/basic game management stuff so yeah I think I'm qualified enough to make that statement.
So, because you understand basic math you're qualified to speak on the exact motivations of every pro and college football organization?

Cool man. Cooooooooooooooool.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by da_fume
You don't get it, they aren't people they are jobs.
Corporations are people, my friend
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodie
So, because you understand basic math you're qualified to speak on the exact motivations of every pro and college football organization?
I'm talking about as it strictly relates to 4th down/in game management decisions. Not sure how you got that out of what I said.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
Corporations are people, my friend
Don't call me friend, buddy.

Last edited by da_fume; 01-10-2014 at 01:37 PM. Reason: Just tryin to derail onto another track
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:38 PM
Tell it to Mitt
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmayB
I'm talking about as it strictly relates to 4th down/in game management decisions. Not sure how you got that out of what I said.
Then you didn't answer my question. I was wondering why organizations don't hire someone to focus only on the numbers.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by da_fume
But they're jobs depend on them winning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
Ya, people are never short-sighted
Quote:
Originally Posted by da_fume
You don't get it, they aren't people they are jobs.
You have to be trolling unless you're on the Goodie bus but who is/are they?

Jobs' jobs depend on winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodie
Then you didn't answer my question. I was wondering why organizations don't hire someone to focus only on the numbers.
I just answered this, the bulk of current coaches would take it as an insult and disregard the info regardless. It may embolden their idiocy even more
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:42 PM
I'm almost positive BB has specifically addressed the thinking behind never punting (I think around 2004ish). At that point he said something kind of lol like "it ignores the emotional impact that not getting the 4th down would have on a defense" or something. But he was definitely aware pretty early on and then proceeded to go on and have a stretch where he was relatively aggressive right up until Colts 4th and 2 (earlier in the year he did basically the same thing at the falcons iirc).

Pure speculation but I think he probably walked right up to the line of getting all the way there and then decided he was either too lazy or didn't have enough political capital or whatever to constantly make those decisions so now he just defaults to standard conservatard decisions. But I'd be shocked if between him and Ernie Adams they aren't aware that they're making incorrect decisions mathematically (even if they rationalize it somehow).

Found the article From 2003 - http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/column...g/1453717.html

Quote:
Up in a fifth floor classroom, David Romer, a Cal-Berkeley professor of economics, writes a series of hieroglyphs on the board -- with a Sharpie, which, unlike a certain wide receiver from across the Bay, he did not pull from his khaki sock:

Ei Di(gt) Vi = Pgt + Bgt Ei Di(gt+1) Vi - egt

This, in the unimpeachable terms of the Bellman Equation, is the definitive proof that NFL head coaches should go for it more on fourth down. Really, no kidding.

"Teams should be a lot more aggressive on fourth down," Romer says with the precise air of a scientist. "On average, you'd be better off going for it, essentially, in any short-yardage situation, and then there are some cases even in longer yardage when you're in that position where neither punting nor a field goal looks very attractive.

"The usual assumption of profit-maximization implies that in their on-field behavior, teams should act to maximize their probabilities of winning. This isn't happening."
LOL Fassel:

Quote:
"This is a professor from Cal-Berzerkely?" asked Giants head coach Jim Fassel, in the true tradition of a former Stanford man.

Fassel turned a sheet with the equation on it sideways, then upside down in a humorous attempt to absorb its subtleties.

"What does the professor coach?" Fassel asked. "Maybe," he added, "he needs a few more classes to teach. Too much free time?"

Steve Mariucci, the 49ers head coach, has considered Romer's thesis. The difficulty, according to Mariucci, is maintaining a level head when everyone in the stadium wants you to go for it.

"The crowd is going 'Go for it,' and they're just drinking beers and just going for it," Mariucci said. "Sometimes you get swayed a little bit. So you've got to block them out and you've got to make sense of it all.

"So then you start thinking about that article the guy from Cal wrote and then you say, 'Well, what would he do in this situation?' "

Along with Mariucci, Bill Belichick of the Super Bowl champion New England Patriots is one of several NFL head coaches who has actually studied Romer's working paper, which, with references and tables, runs a stout 33 pages. Maybe it's because Belichick graduated from Wesleyan University with a bachelor's degree in economics.

"I think, basically, he was saying that if you get down there and don't score, you're putting the other team 80, 90 yards away from the goal line anyway, and the chances of them scoring aren't very good," Belichick said. "You'll probably get the ball back in good field position. And the percentages added up to his conclusion, which was to go for it."

Bill Walsh, another Bay Area professor with some serious tenure, is a believer.

"To this day, I can close my eyes and see 22 players," he said in his San Francisco 49ers office, where he still serves the team as a consultant. "I can see them moving and I can see the equation. My indicators would be somewhat different than (Romer's), but this (equation) is what it takes."

Walsh looked closely at the tangle of letters and numbers.

"It would be fine if I completely understood it," he said. "But I don't think you can get all the variables on one page. I don't care what the equation is, you can't get them all."

That said, Walsh agrees with Romer's basic premise.

"I think (coaches) can tend to be too conservative," Walsh said. "They can tend not to trust themselves -- in a sense, take the easy way out and, in this case, punt the ball."
Some more BB quotes...

Quote:
"Do we punt and use our timeouts?" Belichick asked. "Do we have confidence in our field-goal kicker? Are they going to blitz or not?
Quote:
On fourth down, it's either-or, in or out, liberty or death. It's the ultimate game of chicken.

"Everybody sitting in the stadium knows, hey, this is a big play," Belichick said. "If you go for it, that you're going to maintain possession and it's going to give you another opportunity to score, or you're going to give the ball to the other team and then you're going to have to go through another series of plays to get it back -- if you get it back."
Quote:
"The more third-and-ones you make, the more likely you are to go for it on fourth-and-1," Belichick said. "You also factor in the defensive side of the ball. How good of a short-yardage or goal-line team is your opponent? When you add those two up and you're real good and you don't think the other team is that proficient at it, that's one thing. If it's vice versa, then maybe that skews you.

"In the end, it's about intuition and recalling all of the experiences you've been through."
So if we're speculating it seems like he is or was at that point a believer in momentum and maybe is susceptible to base rate fallacy, though a lot of his bad decisions on fourth down lately seem to run counter to what's happened in the game so far as well.
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:43 PM
I wonder what super secret knowledge Mike Tomlin had when he didnt take a knee and kick an 18 yard FG against Green Bay because he "wasn't into that stuff"
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7777
So it seems like he is or was at that point a believer in momentum and maybe is susceptible to base rate fallacy, though a lot of his bad decisions on fourth down lately seem to run counter to what's happened in the game so far as well.
Quote:
I'm almost positive BB has specifically addressed the thinking behind never punting (I think around 2004ish). At that point he said something kind of lol like "it ignores the emotional impact that not getting the 4th down would have on a defense" or something. But he was definitely aware pretty early on and then proceeded to go on and have a stretch where he was relatively aggressive right up until Colts 4th and 2 (earlier in the year he did basically the same thing at the falcons iirc).
Nice post.

It was later than that I think, but yes. iirc he said he didnt think going for it deep in your own territory all the time and putting all that pressure on the defense was sound.

This is telling IMO, and speaks to base rate fallacy and where a math background helps.

Quote:
"In the end, it's about intuition and recalling all of the experiences you've been through."
Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote
01-10-2014 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
You have to be trolling unless you're on the Goodie bus but who is/are they?
Yes, I was a little too subtle in my attempt to make fun of Baddie's typo I guess. My other post was a misappropriation of:

Kyle Shanahan don't need to know no stinking OT rules. Mario CRYSTALBALL is still unreal dumb Quote

      
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