I thought that's what this thread was for. You'll have to ask wookie about all this.

curious about opinions on something.

what percentage of posters that are exiled from here or thought to be super objectionable in p7 do you think were/are trolls and what percentage were/are legit hardcore bigots?

If Islam gets included into the bigotry just about all of them were bigots. Dont think they were faking it.

People can be trolls and bigots

I will refer you Sartre on that:


The answer is 100%

100%

jesus christ a huge percentage of people who say they aren't bigoted let the mask slip and are just ashamed to say it in public. These people posted for months.

I think Charlottesville changed a lot of things. Play time is over. It's not a game.

chezlaw is ****ing scum and merely getting constantly dunked on whenever he talks back isn't enough. He's going to get banned because he doesn't understand that people give a **** and he still things it's time for top bantz with the silly kids as revenge for what they did to ToothSayer and wil.

to confirm, 100% to both?

but on a site like stormfront, the bigotry is pure, i assume?

wat

100% to the hardcore bigot category

100% to both there too

On that subject, do you not give some leeway to fear, as opposed to racism?

i need further clarification. as we know all too well, real bigots are willing to actually kill the "other".

they're not just fooling around on the internet. do you think stormfront posters are legit racist, but not irl willing to act on their beliefs, and thus trolls as well?

A lot of racism against blacks and Mexicans is based off fears.

"They're taking our jobs"

"They're taking our women"

So there's not really any leeway to give.

I think there are grey scales in this like in everything else.

So there are bad and worse racists/trolls.

i understand that. but if somebody has developed racist beliefs out of fear, as opposed to being brainwashed into thinking another race is inferior, that is a person that can be reached, no?

it's a trick question because the people with bigoted views also tend to enjoy trolling, certainly in part because trolling is prominent in the current right-wing culture. The influence of alt-right internet communities is obviously a factor there, but I think it's also just a consequence of the culture wars broadly speaking. Sticking it to liberals has become a defining policy goal because so much of politics on the right is about identity, even though conservatives tend to deride identity politics. The bigotry or regressive cultural politics goes along with that but also preexists it imo.

So there's maybe more of a spectrum than a dichotomy between bigotry and trolling. I think most of the exiles or would-have-been-exiles (e.g. broadwaysushy, jiggymac, mongidig, wil) tend to fall on the part of the spectrum that involves having more or less garden variety bigoted views which are really fairly common among Americans. They also tended to do a lot of trolling, including trolling about social justice issues. But, I don't really picture most of them bothering to show up to an alt-right rally with nazis and KKK members (and some of them aren't American), if that's what you mean by hardcore. Except for maybe toothsayer and love sosa.

Note that I'm not trying to minimize the offensiveness of those bigoted views by saying they aren't "hardcore", whatever that means, but it still seems reasonable to distinguish between literal neo-nazis and the pretty broad mainstream of bigotry, prejudice, and ignorance in American culture. The latter is actually a bigger problem. Although I feel like the right's embrace of trolling is also radicalizing their bigotry, hence the rise of the alt-right.

Also I don't think bigotry is defined by willingness to directly physically harm someone, fwiw.

Nah especially not an American. Its a completely irrational fear level and one they dont have for things equally or more dangerous. Like white supremacist and the extreme right who kill more then Muslims.

Plus a lot of racism comes from that same type of fear.

Anything that doesn't move the puck towards the goal is ridiculous.

Me posting here qualifies as a ridiculous use of my time by that measure. However, I do allow myself certain ridiculous indulgences. I enjoy posting and reading on 2+2, and I have some vague hope that me doing so isn't entirely unhelpful.

I'm not sure I have a whole list of who is exiled. We're talking <dozen peeps, so exactly who's in and who's out can make a huge difference. That being said, they were pretty much all trolls. Some of those trolls were also r-word-ers.

Beyond that, I really think you're setting yourself up for failure and frustration with the way you phrased your question. The problem being your phrase "legit harcore bigot"... which isn't clearly defined. What you've gone done is invite a discussion about what the term "legit hardcore bigot" might even mean at all. Cliffs: it ain't going to mean anywhere close to the same thing to pretty much anybody. So the whole Q will devolve into a garbage-in-out-and-tossed-about situation.

I'd suggest a more objective and relevant question. For example, perhaps ask: "how many are/were in favor of legalizing segregated lunch counters?"

Your posting in this thread has seemed pretty trollish to me. And not in the good way where there's some kind of real point being made in roguish fashion. I couldn't figure out what point you were trying to convey, if you had one. Just fwiw.

so let me define my view of troll: someone who posts something offensive, for fun, whether they believe it or not, and have no real interest in an actual conversation.


is that how you view: (e.g. broadwaysushy, jiggymac, mongidig, wil)?

While some of them trolled some of the time they were pretty much all bigoted all of the time.

Pretending like one is trolling after having their opinion opposed and doused by everyone else is a fairly common retreat.

I think there are two different questions: do they believe what they say, and do they have an interest in a real conversation?

I think most of the people in question believe the things they said, more or less. I think sometimes they may have chosen to state their beliefs in a more provocative way than they might otherwise have because they also like to troll. But I don't have any reason to doubt they were expressing their real views.

I think their interest in an actual conversation varied. I don't think sushy was ever interested in conversation. I've never seen him participate in any. Jiggy was similar. I think wil is interested in conversation, in his own way, although I think he's kind of bad at it. It's probably more accurate to say he's interested in expressing his real opinion, but not great at discussing issues. It was clear sometimes mongidig was just straight up trolling and other times he seemed sincere. But being sincere doesn't really mean being able to actually have a conversation.

There were other posters who were less trollish but who had views which would certainly have gotten them exiled here eventually, if they weren't already (I'm not sure). I also don't doubt they believed the things they were saying.

The racism part is worse. But it kind of comes forward with the trolling.

An exiled non-racist coming to mind is spank, btw. So not quite 100%...think he isn't deliberately trolling either, as a matter of fact. Probably his tendency to catch up on one wrong thing is the cause?

Remember non-racist Brian has also had issues itt.

Yeah but they need to be reached by the actions in the world around them converging with them paying more attention and growing as a person.

Chit chat on the internet is never going to repeal their racism even if it is strictly out of fear. They need to actually find some successes in life and expand their social interactions to develop a broadened view of people and the world. Especially when they are likely mainlining right wing propaganda that is explicitly feeding their fear.