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Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Shootings in LA and MN Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Shootings in LA and MN

08-12-2016 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
Hasn't the crime rate, especially murder, skyrocketed in Baltimore since the police force has come under scrutiny and been forced to adjust their practices.

I am sure Mr Wookie would argue this is for the greater good. But I am guessing the mother of someone who was killed due to a decrease in proactive policing might have a different take on the matter.
So this is a pretty easy lolsamplesize, right?
08-12-2016 , 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
I will take that wager.

MrWookie, I can't remember which part of the website has prop bets and trusted people to act as escrow agents. Help, please.
Ok. Cool. Set everything up, including the terms of the wager, arbitrators and an escrow agent. Then I will tell you the wager amount and we will get this thing going.
08-12-2016 , 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
The Atlantic had a good article on the result of reforms made by the Dallas PD. Note that it's incorrect to suggest that "reduction of proactive policing" is what liberals are after in terms of reform.



Also, there is no evidence that state welfare programs create crime. This is, of course, too simplistic of a measure, but welfare spending has been increasing steadily over the last several decades, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of GDP. Meanwhile, crime rates have been in steady decline. Even if a simple comparison of those top-line numbers is inadequate, it dramatically limits the possibility that welfare spending causes crime. Other research has found empirical evidence to support the claim that anti-poverty programs reduce crime:
Why you try to take money out of my pocket?
08-12-2016 , 03:43 PM
I feel we are getting off tangent here. Call me a racist and ban me if you want, but the basic premise of my argument is that:

Poverty causes Crime causes Police Profiling

-And all this emphasis on reforming police practices is completely missing the point. Police practice is an effect. Not a cause. We need to go way downstream if we hope to actually make things better.

Maybe antipoverty campaigns, or even reparations, are the solution. I don't know. I just dont think that putting body cameras on police officers and assigning a federal task force to investigate police practices is going to help much of anything.

Just my 2c.
08-12-2016 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
I feel we are getting off tangent here. Call me a racist and ban me if you want, but the basic premise of my argument is that:

Poverty causes Crime causes Police Profiling

-And all this emphasis on reforming police practices is completely missing the point. Police practice is an effect. Not a cause. We need to go way downstream if we hope to actually make things better.

Maybe antipoverty campaigns, or even reparations, are the solution. I don't know. I just dont think that putting body cameras on police officers and assigning a federal task force to investigate police practices is going to help much of anything.

Just my 2c.
A ban would be silly when a potential prop bet is on the line.

Wookie, please agree. It would be a shame to ban someone who wants to give me money.
08-12-2016 , 03:48 PM
Wait, you were just arguing that welfare causes crime.
08-12-2016 , 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Wait, you were just arguing that welfare causes crime.
Think of the bigger picture, Mr. Wookie.
08-12-2016 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
I feel we are getting off tangent here. Call me a racist and ban me if you want, but the basic premise of my argument is that:

Poverty causes Crime causes Police Profiling

-And all this emphasis on reforming police practices is completely missing the point. Police practice is an effect. Not a cause. We need to go way downstream if we hope to actually make things better.

Maybe antipoverty campaigns, or even reparations, are the solution. I don't know. I just dont think that putting body cameras on police officers and assigning a federal task force to investigate police practices is going to help much of anything.

Just my 2c.
What DO you think will help? Stop saying what won't help and offer a solution
08-12-2016 , 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
I just dont think that putting body cameras on police officers and assigning a federal task force to investigate police practices is going to help much of anything.
Your logic depends on the belief that racial disparities in the use of force by police are entirely caused by racial disparities in crime rates. That is, you don't think racial discrimination is actually a problem.

But, there is a tremendous amount of research which reaches the opposite conclusion. The Baltimore and Ferguson PD DOJ complaints were already linked, and I keep spamming this thread in which racial discrimination in the criminal justice system is outlined in some detail. See especially posts 3 and 4.
08-12-2016 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Wait, you were just arguing that welfare causes crime.

Insomuch as current welfare practices perpetuate a cycle of poverty and hopelessness, resulting in crime, this is correct (correct that it is my opinion, I don't know how accurate my opinion is)
08-12-2016 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
Insomuch as current welfare practices perpetuate a cycle of poverty and hopelessness, resulting in crime, this is correct (correct that it is my opinion, I don't know how accurate my opinion is)
Have you ever know anybody on wellfare?
08-12-2016 , 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by master3004
Have you ever know anybody on wellfare?
No.

Do you know any racist police officers who profile black people?
08-12-2016 , 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
No.

Do you know any racist police officers who profile black people?
Not personally no, but I have evidence it happens. My question was in response to "current welfare practices perpetuate a cycle of poverty and hopelessness." Do you have any evidence of that like I do of cops profiling black people?
08-12-2016 , 04:39 PM
I have evidence that some people on welfare remain poor and commit crimes.
08-12-2016 , 04:48 PM
citing adam corolla non-ironically








wat
08-12-2016 , 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
Insomuch as current welfare practices perpetuate a cycle of poverty and hopelessness, resulting in crime, this is correct (correct that it is my opinion, I don't know how accurate my opinion is)
Welfare doesn't perpetuate poverty. The majority of people on welfare are kids and the elderly. Something like 97% of people get off of welfare within a yea or so. The main perpetuation of poverty is either people who can't work, like children, the elderly, caretakers, students, the disabled, or unemployed or those who can't find stable work. What keeps people near poverty is low income jobs. That's about it. It's pretty straightforward.
08-12-2016 , 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
Your logic depends on the belief that racial disparities in the use of force by police are entirely caused by racial disparities in crime rates. That is, you don't think racial discrimination is actually a problem.

But, there is a tremendous amount of research which reaches the opposite conclusion. The Baltimore and Ferguson PD DOJ complaints were already linked, and I keep spamming this thread in which racial discrimination in the criminal justice system is outlined in some detail. See especially posts 3 and 4.
Staaaaaaahp.
08-12-2016 , 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl
Aww but see I was very specific



Because I knew what the studies said as did the piece you just posted



Notice the conditional?

that means it's still possible that the overall rate of minority deaths is going to be higher because if the police are stopping minorities more because of bias then they're going to run into more minorities with guns and violence or whatever even if their decision to escalate the violence isn't biased.

But like I said overall the data is very bad. Garbage in, garbage out and the data on police actions is pretty ugly so it's hard to draw any definitive conclusions. When you read the actual studies they make a ton of caveats given the quality of data they're working with.
Yes, so this is a major finding. You now cannot say police get nervous or afraid or whatever the narrative is- when they pull over black people which leads to using force. And this was the entire media narrative with these recent police videos right?
08-12-2016 , 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
I don't know. I just dont think that putting body cameras on police officers and assigning a federal task force to investigate police practices is going to help much of anything.

Just my 2c.
Are you saying that the most racist and vicious police officers will be too stupid or pathological to adjust their behavior even if they know they are being filmed?
08-12-2016 , 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
Insomuch as current welfare practices perpetuate a cycle of poverty and hopelessness, resulting in crime, this is correct (correct that it is my opinion, I don't know how accurate my opinion is)
Why do you want to strongly push an opinion that even you acknowledge may not be accurate?
08-12-2016 , 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben

Dibs argument is that for $45K/YR every police office should be willing to sacrifice his life And put civilian lives, including criminals in the act of committing crimes, in front of their own. While this is a noble concept, I find it very naive and unrealistic.
Tell that to the tens of thousands of US military personnel who actually face real danger from armed, enemy combatants.
08-12-2016 , 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
I have evidence that some people on welfare remain poor and commit crimes.
You understand how that isn't at all what you said and what I was calling you out on was bull****?
08-12-2016 , 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by businessdude
Yes, so this is a major finding. You now cannot say police get nervous or afraid or whatever the narrative is- when they pull over black people which leads to using force. And this was the entire media narrative with these recent police videos right?
No it's not a major finding. Ironically the same media summarized the findings of the reports in a much more expansive and conclusive manner than the researchers themselves did. Basically file it under the same "huh, that's interesting more research is needed" category when you hear about "people who do X live longer" or whatever.

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 08-12-2016 at 05:56 PM.
08-12-2016 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick_Ben
I don't know what woman you are talking about, so I am guessing I wasn't responding to that like you think I was. Also, again cherrypicking isolated incidences isn't doing anyone any favors.
This isn't cherrypicking:

http://civilrights.baltimorecity.gov...port-FINAL.pdf
Quote:
Discrimination against African Americans
BPD’s targeted policing of certain Baltimore neighborhoods with minimal oversight or accountability disproportionately harms African-American residents. Racially disparate impact is present at every stage of BPD’s enforcement actions, from the initial decision to stop individuals on
Baltimore streets to searches, arrests, and uses of force. These racial disparities, along with evidence suggesting intentional discrimination, erode the community trust that is critical to effective policing.
• BPD disproportionately stops African-American pedestrians. Citywide, BPD stopped African-American residents three times as often as white residents after controlling for the population of the area in which the stops occurred. In each of BPD’s nine police districts, African Americans accounted for a greater share of BPD’s stops than the population living in the district. And BPD is far more likely to subject individual African Americans to multiple stops in short periods of time. In the five and a half years of data we examined, African Americans accounted for 95 percent of the 410 individuals BPD stopped at least 10 times. One African American man in his mid-fifties was stopped 30
times in less than 4 years. Despite these repeated intrusions, none of the 30 stops resulted in a citation or criminal charge.
• BPD also stops African American drivers at disproportionate rates. African Americans accounted for 82 percent of all BPD vehicle stops, compared to only 60 percent of the driving age population in the City and 27 percent of the driving age population in the greater metropolitan area.
• BPD disproportionately searches African Americans during stops. BPD searched African Americans more frequently during pedestrian and vehicle stops, even though searches of African Americans were less likely to discover contraband. Indeed, BPD officers found contraband twice as often when searching white individuals compared to African Americans during vehicle stops and 50 percent more often during pedestrian stops.
• African Americans similarly accounted for 86 percent of all criminal offenses charged by BPD officers despite making up only 63 percent of Baltimore residents.
o Racial disparities in BPD’s arrests are most pronounced for highly discretionary offenses: African Americans accounted for 91 percent of the 1,800 people charged solely with “failure to obey” or “trespassing”; 89 percent of the 1,350 charges for making a false statement to an officer; and 84 percent of the 6,500 people arrested for “disorderly conduct.” Moreover, booking officials and prosecutors decline charges brought against African Americans at significantly higher rates than charges against people of other races, indicating that officers’ standards for making arrests differ by the race of the person arrested.
o We also found large racial disparities in BPD’s arrests for drug possession. While survey data shows that African Americans use drugs at rates similar to or slightly exceeding other population groups, BPD arrested African Americans for drug 6 possession at five times the rate of others.
BPD deployed a policing strategy that, by its design, led to differential enforcement in African-American communities. But BPD failed to use adequate policy, training and accountability mechanisms to prevent discrimination, despite longstanding notice of concerns about how it polices African-American communities in the City. BPD has conducted virtually no analysis of its own data to ensure that its enforcement activities are non-discriminatory, and the Department misclassifies or otherwise fails to investigate specific complaints of racial bias. Nor has the Department held officers accountable for using racial slurs or making other statements exhibiting racial bias. In some cases, BPD supervisors have ordered officers to specifically target African Americans for stops and arrests. These failures contribute to the large racial disparities in BPD’s enforcement that undermine the community’s trust in the fairness of the police. BPD leadership has acknowledged that this lack of trust inhibits their ability to forge important community partnerships.

Use of Constitutionally Excessive Force
Our review of investigative files for all deadly force cases from 2010 until May 1, 2016, and a random sample of over eight hundred non-deadly force cases reveals that BPD engages in a pattern or practice of excessive force. Deficiencies in BPD’s policies, training, and oversight of officers’ force incidents have led to the pattern or practice of excessive force that we observed. We identified several recurring issues with BPD’s use of force:
• First, BPD uses overly aggressive tactics that unnecessarily escalate encounters, increase tensions, and lead to unnecessary force, and fails to de-escalate encounters when it would be reasonable to do so. Officers frequently resort to physical force when a subject does not immediately respond to verbal commands, even where the subject poses no imminent threat to the officer or others. These tactics result from BPD’s training and guidance.
• Second, BPD uses excessive force against individuals with mental health disabilities or in crisis. Due to a lack of training and improper tactics, BPD officers end up in unnecessarily violent confrontations with these vulnerable individuals. BPD provides less effective services to people with mental illness and intellectual disabilities by failing to account for these disabilities in officers’ law enforcement actions, leading to unnecessary and excessive force being used against them. BPD has failed to make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, and procedures to avoid discriminating against people with mental illness and intellectual disabilities.
• Third, BPD uses unreasonable force against juveniles. These incidents arise from BPD’s failure to use widely-accepted tactics for communicating and interacting with youth. Instead, officers interacting with youth rely on the same aggressive tactics they use with adults, leading to unnecessary conflict.
• Fourth, BPD uses unreasonable force against people who present little or no threat to officers or others. Specifically, BPD uses excessive force against (1) individuals who are already restrained and under officers’ control and (2) individuals who are fleeing from officers and are not suspected of serious criminal offenses.
o Force used on restrained individuals: we found many examples of BPD officers using unreasonable force on individuals who were restrained and no longer posed a threat to officers or the public.
o Force used on fleeing suspects: BPD officers frequently engage in foot pursuits of individuals, even where the fleeing individuals are not suspected of violent crimes. BPD’s foot pursuit tactics endanger officers and the community, and frequently lead to officers using excessive force on fleeing suspects who pose minimal threat. BPD’s aggressive approach to foot pursuits extends to flight in vehicles.
We also examined BPD’s transportation of detainees, but were unable to make a finding due to a lack of available data. We were unable to secure reliable records from either BPD or the jail regarding injuries sustained during transport or any recordings. Nonetheless, we found evidence that BPD: (1) routinely fails to properly secure arrestees in transport vehicles; (2) needs to continue to update its transport equipment to protect arrestees during transport; (3) fails to keep necessary records; and (4) must implement more robust auditing and monitoring systems to ensure that its transport policies and training are followed.
• Our concerns about BPD’s use of excessive force are compounded by BPD’s ineffective oversight of its use of force. Of the 2,818 force incidents that BPD recorded in the nearly six-year period we reviewed, BPD investigated only ten incidents based on concerns identified through its internal review. Of these ten cases, BPD found only one use of force to be excessive.

Retaliation for Activities Protected by the First Amendment
BPD violates the First Amendment by retaliating against individuals engaged in constitutionally protected activities. Officers frequently detain and arrest members of the public for engaging in speech the officers perceive to be critical or disrespectful. And BPD officers use force against members of the public who are engaging in protected speech. BPD has failed to provide officers with sufficient guidance and oversight regarding their interactions with individuals that implicate First Amendment protections, leading to the violations we observed.

Indications of Gender Bias in Sexual Assault Investigations
Although we do not, at this time, find reasonable cause to believe that BPD engages in gender-biased policing in violation of federal law, the allegations we received during the investigation, along with our review of BPD files, suggests that gender bias may be affecting BPD’s handling of sexual assault cases. We found indications that officers fail to meaningfully investigate reports of sexual assault, particularly for assaults involving women with additional vulnerabilities, such as those who are involved in the sex trade. Detectives fail to develop and resolve preliminary investigations; fail to identify and collect evidence to corroborate victims’ accounts; inadequately
document their investigative steps; fail to collect and assess data, and report and classify reports of sexual assault; and lack supervisory review. We also have concerns that officers’ interactions with women victims of sexual assault and with transgender individuals display unlawful gender bias.
08-12-2016 , 06:24 PM
This is getting tedious and boring. Feel free to nitpick every little minor detail and continue to completely miss the point.

As a society we will continue to ignore the real issues in the name of political correctedness, as we focus on fringe issues and smoke and mirros, and in the deepest darkest corners of their hearts all the rich, white liberals will be secretly pleased that they did their part to perpetuate a system of inequity that will see their children grow up with the same privilege and advantages that they did.

      
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