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The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 237: Back to Court The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 237: Back to Court

02-09-2014 , 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by schu
But ikes is likely to spit out something like "la la la doctor shortages" and "Ive posted everything before, just go read the entirety of this 10,000 post thread again."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikes
Obamacare is an improvement over the status quo. It's far from acceptable. There are many more problems in health care that it does not address that need to be addressed. Obamacare is a commitment to a technocratic health care system that needs constant updating and productive legislative and executive input. I'm not exactly hopeful for that in the long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikes
lol I don't know how you could possibly read what I've written itt and miss what's a rather large set of positions on obamacare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schu
I really would like to get a synthesis from ikes on what he thinks the law does and why it was necessary (or unnecessary)
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikes
*crickets*
02-09-2014 , 08:25 PM
again, be addressed multiple times itt. It's cute to see someone who doesn't care if people actually get timely care come at me though.
02-09-2014 , 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
"Obamacare sucks because its unpopular, and its unpopular because republicans are good at lying to and manipulating stupid people. GOP '16!"
Obamacare sucks because it's unpopular, and it's unpopular because Obama can't manipulate smart people the same way he can manipulate the sheeple.
02-09-2014 , 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
How much of America's overspending is on salaries? If you cut an average of 10% from everyone, how much would America save?
More like cut 75% of the workers whose paycheck comes from the government.
02-09-2014 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKay
Obamacare sucks because it's unpopular, and it's unpopular because Obama can't manipulate smart people the same way he can manipulate the sheeple.
This guy's a gem.
02-09-2014 , 11:30 PM
DKay, sometimes I worry you will not make it to the 2016 election so I can collect our prop bet, lol. One of these days the trolling will just get too much for a mod.
02-09-2014 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
lol I don't know how you could possibly read what I've written itt and miss what's a rather large set of positions on obamacare. The irony of doing that while not being able to synthesize a response you're supposedly responding to is delicious. I guess it's easier for you though. Going the fly route and just making up whatever position for your opponent that you can beat is easy, even if lazy and obvious.

For your attention span: Obamacare is an improvement over the status quo. It's far from acceptable. There are many more problems in health care that it does not address that need to be addressed. Obamacare is a commitment to a technocratic health care system that needs constant updating and productive legislative and executive input. I'm not exactly hopeful for that in the long term.
See, was that so hard? Thank you. Could have done without the personal attacks, but I guess that's par for the course.
02-10-2014 , 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by schu_22
See, was that so hard? Thank you. Could have done without the personal attacks, but I guess that's par for the course.
It's what you get when you quote that kind of fly post approvingly. It's deserved.
02-10-2014 , 07:19 PM
lol barry

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...75213074082656

Quote:
In regulations outlining the Affordable Care Act, the Treasury Department said employers with between 50 and 99 full-time workers won't have to comply with the law's requirement to provide insurance or pay a fee until 2016.

Companies with 100 workers or more could avoid penalties in 2015 if they showed they were offering coverage to at least 70 percent of their full-time workers, the Treasury said.
keep gutting your signature (only) achievement bro, why the hell not, after all we wouldn't want anything interfering with your legacy of horrible negotiating, droning and illegal spying
02-10-2014 , 08:05 PM
Has there been discussion about Bill Kristol's Obamacare alternative itt? I don't check it often to know.
02-10-2014 , 08:30 PM
Well, googling 'Bill Kristol's Obamacare' alternative comes up with stuff from august/september 2013. We may have talked about it but I don't remember.
02-10-2014 , 08:58 PM
Lemme guess. Something across state lines something tort reform something something market based something consumer choice?
02-10-2014 , 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
Well, googling 'Bill Kristol's Obamacare' alternative comes up with stuff from august/september 2013. We may have talked about it but I don't remember.
This appears to be more recent, but might be a rehash of some old idea:
Quote:
bamacare is failing. Faced with this unpleasant reality, President Obama offered up during his State of the Union address his only remaining defense of his eponymous program: There is no alternative. “[M]y Republican friends…if you have specific plans…tell America what you’d do differently….We all owe it to the American people to say what we’re for, not just what we’re against.”
Capitol at night

We accept the challenge. The 2017 Project, with which we’re associated, has developed an alternative to Obama’s 2,700 pages of federal largess. The proposal builds upon prior efforts by conservative policymakers and thinkers, including recent proposals from the House Republican Study Committee (RSC) and a trio of senior GOP senators (Tom Coburn, Richard Burr, and Orrin Hatch). It would solve the three core problems that called out for real reform even before the Democrats passed Obamacare: getting more people insured; dealing with the problem of preexisting conditions; and lowering costs. In providing politically attractive and substantively sound solutions to these three core concerns, it would justify bringing an end to Obamacare, and thus would pave the way for full repeal.
Lulz

Quote:
In order to increase the number of people with insurance versus the pre-Obamacare status quo without compelling anyone to buy anything, the 2017 Project proposal would address what has long been a basic unfairness in the tax code. Why should millions of Americans who get insurance through their employer get a tax break, while millions who buy it on their own through the individual market do not? We would end this unfairness by offering a refundable tax credit, one that would apply to everyone who buys insurance through the individual market (just as the employer-based tax break applies to everyone in the employer market). Since insurance costs increase with age, the value of the tax credit does too: $1,200 for those under 35 years of age, $2,100 for those between 35 and 50, and $3,000 for those who are 50 or over. There would also be a $900 credit per child. Those who didn’t use the full value of their tax credit could deposit what’s left in a health savings account (HSA). Figures from the Government Accountability Office suggest that—in the absence of Obamacare’s myriad mandates—such credits, combined with the reform of letting people buy insurance across state lines, would make a low-premium (“catastrophic”) policy affordable for everyone.
02-10-2014 , 09:32 PM
State lines!!!
02-10-2014 , 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99
State lines!!!
Amusing how the "state's rights" crowd wants a state like North Dakota to be able to set minimum health insurance standards that states like California or New York must accept.
02-11-2014 , 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuban B
Amusing how the "state's rights" crowd wants a state like North Dakota to be able to set minimum health insurance standards that states like California or New York must accept.
There isn't a "state's rights" crowd, but if there were, they wouldn't.
02-11-2014 , 11:17 AM
The GOP hates working America wrt the ACA?

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/11/why_...sonal_failure/

Quote:
To the conservatives who have portrayed the CBO's findings honestly, this is still unacceptable freeloading. Some of them have resorted to mocking the class of people who will avail themselves of that option - "Bored with your job? No worries-now you can quit, thanks to the generosity of other taxpayers." Others, like Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., have taken a subtler approach, lamenting that Obamacare means fewer people will be "getting the dignity of work, getting more opportunities, rising their income, joining the middle class."
Ryan's conflating two different effects here. But a hairbreadth separates his comments from outright condescension - particularly those who will be able to retire early or raise a child because of Obamacare's healthcare guarantee. People who would have left the workforce already had it not been for the perverse incentives the old system created.
He and other conservatives are making an implicit moral argument about these people's choices - that their decision to stop working is inferior to an alternative in which they must keep their jobs to maintain steady health coverage. Particularly if other taxpayers are on the hook in any way. Scratch at that ideology very lightly, though, and you'll reveal a more expansive worldview that places the highest moral esteem on the possession of wealth.

....


It's the same ideology that undergirds GOP opposition to extending emergency unemployment compensation. A view of working people - and really everyone but the truly wealthy - as beasts of burden who will become lazy if they aren't prodded. If they can't work, don't feed them. If the missing pieces separating them from the ability to survive with what they already have are a coverage guarantee and a premium tax credit, it should be denied to them. If they've outlived their use, put them out to pasture.

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 02-11-2014 at 11:37 AM.
02-11-2014 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexM
There isn't a "state's rights" crowd, but if there were, they wouldn't.
?

It isnt a secret that the reason the insurance corporations have been lobbying for selling across state lines is so they can relocate their offices to whatever states have the least regulations and so they can lower the costs (thus, quality) of coverage across all the states.

This is openly discussed in the actual post that started this tangent:

" Figures from the Government Accountability Office suggest that—in the absence of Obamacare’s myriad mandates—such credits, combined with the reform of letting people buy insurance across state lines, would make a low-premium (“catastrophic”) policy affordable for everyone."

That "low-premium" catastrophic affordable policy is going to cover very little so they can still have a high profit margin despite being relatively cheap. This is literally "we will make sure everyone has coverage by redefining coverage to only include resetting broken bones, but we wont cover pain killers so make sure your car crash injuries arent too severe.
02-11-2014 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexM
There isn't a "state's rights" crowd, but if there were, they wouldn't.
True, in the same sense that there isn't a fiscal conservative party or large voting block in the US. However, there is a party and large voting block that will use that horse**** rhetoric when convenient.
02-11-2014 , 02:16 PM
Perhaps someone can explain this to me...
If providers have all the pricing leverage over insurers driving up prices, why isn't Kaiser Permanente either the cheapest plan or the most profitable insurer?
02-11-2014 , 02:32 PM
Oddly I feel like you're going to tell us.
02-11-2014 , 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl
Oddly I feel like you're going to tell us.
I could make guesses, but I thought someone else might have looked into it since there has been a lot of discussion in this thread about provider pricing power.
02-11-2014 , 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer
Shouldn't USA#1 have the GOAT genetics with all our diversity?
Nothing wrong with US genetics. Get out of your cars and walk. Stop drinking soda. Even diet soda is bad.
02-11-2014 , 08:58 PM
neg who ARE you
02-12-2014 , 01:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benholio
lol.. so why aren't these Governors turning away Federal funding for school and roads? Couldn't the law change one day and the states have to pay more? That is a terrible reason to refuse the expansion. If the law changed, the states could just opt-out anyway.



There's a decent argument to be made that refusing the Medicaid expansion will cost more than taking it, when you consider the reduction of uncompensated care costs, spending on some state programs that wouldn't be needed any more, increase in revenue for local health providers, etc. States that don't take the expansion will just be funneling billions of dollars of their taxpayers money into the states that do take it.

People in these states should be irate. They are footing the bill for 90% of the expansion no matter what, but will get absolutely no benefit from it because their state won't kick in the other 10%.
Rick Perry says that Texas already does a fine job caring for people below the poverty level.

This is not true but he claims it anyways. It is wholly irrational to turn down this funding.

      
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