The GOP war on voting - Page 107 - Politics and Economics

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The GOP war on voting

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09-25-2015 , 10:23 AM

#2651

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

Why isn't the redistricting done by an independent third party?

because that often leads to similar or worse outcomes

09-25-2015 , 10:24 AM

#2652

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

Really?

09-25-2015 , 10:26 AM

#2653

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

by any rational definition of what neutral redistricting is supposed to achieve, yeah

09-25-2015 , 10:28 AM

#2654

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

Iowa uses one and the districts seem kinda normal and blocky.

09-25-2015 , 10:28 AM

#2655

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

o.O

I don't think most people consider "shape of districts" to be one of the more important reasons for neutral boundary drawing

09-25-2015 , 10:33 AM

#2656

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

OK, how about you spell out for us what is the terrible, unintended tragedy of Iowa's districts.

09-25-2015 , 10:34 AM

#2657

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

Well when you have the snakes and other craziness of some areas it's a decent indicator IMO.

It wasn't mean as a reason for, that should be obvious.

09-25-2015 , 10:36 AM

#2658

Roonil Wazlib

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Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

decent indicator of what?

the shape of the district is usually a byproduct of the actual reason for partisan redistricting.

I'm saying the research I've seen on the subject points out that neutral parties redrawing lines tend to have little to no statistical difference to lines drawn by partisans, wrt election outcomes/safety of districts/etc

09-25-2015 , 10:41 AM

#2659

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

That they aren't drawing them to keep certain people/parties in power in certain areas.

09-25-2015 , 10:42 AM

#2660

Noze

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 25,711

Gerrymandering!

09-25-2015 , 10:43 AM

#2661

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

okay, but neutral parties redrawing district lines leads to certain people/parties being kept in power in certain areas. So, basically no effect.

09-25-2015 , 10:45 AM

#2662

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

So just allow gerrymandering by the parties?

09-25-2015 , 10:47 AM

#2663

ogallalabob

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,448

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

Yes, that's what I meant.

Exactly.

My point is that it is impossible to find someone who wants to be involved and are actually independent. It's not like both sides would not try to get their people put in place to influence the outcome.

09-25-2015 , 10:47 AM

#2664

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

if it's a crapshoot anyway, why not?

my preferred alternative is proportional representation, but whatcha gonna do?

09-25-2015 , 10:54 AM

#2665

Noze

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 25,711

This sounds like some letting the good be the enemy of perfect ****.

09-25-2015 , 11:12 AM

#2666

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

if you want to define your terms, go right ahead. I'm just saying research has been done on this subject, and any reasonable definition of why one would think to prefer neutral redistricting over partisan redistricting has been shown to have basically no effect, if not worse outcomes.

Like, oh, this seat was comfortably D before neutral redistricting, and now it's even more comfortable D after!

09-25-2015 , 12:17 PM

#2667

seattlelou

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 31,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roonil Wazlib

Districts change once a decade. It had an effect in 2012 but it is wanting in the highest order to attribute Dem losses to that in 2010 and 2014.

09-25-2015 , 12:18 PM

#2668

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

I'm not seeing where he said anything that would lead to that response?

09-25-2015 , 12:37 PM

#2669

lycosid

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2,806

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roonil Wazlib

I feel much more comfortable with a district that is comfortably D because people who live in a particular city or county are majority dems than one that's D bc it picks up the majority black sections of two cities 80 miles apart and virtually nothing in between.

09-25-2015 , 07:23 PM

#2670

zikzak

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 22,198

What about the idea that a district should be represented by somebody with ties to a reasonably defined geographic area? There's no way in hell most residents in those crazy shaped districts are getting adequate representation.

09-25-2015 , 07:34 PM

#2671

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

Population density often precludes similar, nearby geographies from becoming a single district.

It's a game of give and take because there is no great answer.

Take black people. Do you put them all in one district so they get a representative that they feel really represents them? Or do you spread them out over a number of districts so that they maybe get a rep of their preferred party, but whom they don't particularly feel represents them well?

Both solutions have big problems, but either could be acceptable.

09-25-2015 , 07:43 PM

#2672

longmissedblind

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,736

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVaut1

I may have missed this in another thread, but Florida GOP working overtime to synergize the GOP's three favorite tactics: gerrymandering, imprisoning black people, and disenfranchising voters. It's like the Oreo cookie of GOP strategy:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckrak...gerrymandering

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerabino

Voters in overwhelming numbers approve a method for the state to buy and preserve environmental land in Florida. The voter referendum, now part of the state constitution, creates a pool of more than $700 million to buy these lands, but when the state legislature meets, it “opts out” of complying with the voter referendum.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/...emium-referral

Basically the 2 75-80% majority GOP "leadership" bodies don't give a **** about what the voters think.

09-25-2015 , 11:24 PM

#2673

Louis Cyphre

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 11,025

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roonil Wazlib

Take black people. Do you put them all in one district so they get a representative that they feel really represents them? Or do you spread them out over a number of districts so that they maybe get a rep of their preferred party, but whom they don't particularly feel represents them well?

Both solutions have big problems, but either could be acceptable.

How about not looking at racial demographics data at all when drawing district lines?

09-26-2015 , 01:09 AM

#2674

Dutch101

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,992

Drawing district lines fairly is a problem that can be solved by a computer these days. The rules that the program needs to work with can't be that hard to agree on either if it wasn't for the fact that those benefiting from gerrymandering would be the same people having to agree with this.

09-26-2015 , 06:39 AM

#2675

Roonil Wazlib

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3,333

Computer generated models look visually pleasing to the eye, but that's about it. They can be pretty balanced around population, but there's not much evidence i've seen that they can divy up land geographically/industrially related and not, say, pack all minorities into one district.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

How about not looking at racial demographics data at all when drawing district lines?

sure, you can do that as well. you might end up with minorities having zero representatives aligned with their preferences, thus less minority representation, but hey, at least we can say we drew boundaries in a random fashion.

this problem is one of the many easily solved by proportional representation, of course. >.>

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