Of course it doesn't matter in terms of the truth or falsity of the theory itself. It doesn't even matter to the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of a proposed solution.

Pat Michaels claimed to be the "State Climatologist of Virginia", when in fact no such position even existed. http://www.climatesciencewatch.org/i.../pat-michaels/

But that's ok, just move on to the next crackpot/fraud. There's plenty to choose from. It's a pretty sweet deal for you guys how the whole denial movement never has to be accountable for the utter wrongness or outright lies of any of its members - yet a few borderline unethical emails by a legitimate scientist can apparently disprove all of global warming in one fell swoop.

I also will never for the life of me understand how some of you are so obsessed with this theory about government grabbing money and control, when you know for a fact the other side is pretty much transparently funded by the fossil fuel industry. Cognitive dissonance of epic proportions going on.

Think about this: When the ozone hole was widening, and top scientists told the leaders of the world it was caused by CFSs - largely from freon AC and aerosols - do you think the leaders of the world just saw $control$contorol$control? Or do you think they legiitmately believed the problem, and then acted on it? The only difference here is the fossil fuel industry $>$>$>$>$>$>$> CFC industry. So we have a gigantic debate. Although somehow I wouldn't doubt it served some of your pet crackpot's purposes to go back and deny the whole ozone problem/fix as well. So sigh I guess. I guess nothing science-related can ever be proven in the internet/pundit age.

DAMMIT I'M BACK IN POLITCS AGAIN. #@()$*!#@)$*((()O9

Ok, you're just insane. I should have read farther. Carry on.

His tone might be striking but what, precisely, do you contest?

Somehow I didn't get a membership card?

I love the use of the "denial" phrase by the way. It pretty much says what the pro AGW side is all about. You know the science without actually having the science to back it up. The other side is in obvious denial, never mind the science which we are certain of, just can't prove yet.

How about "Rachel Carson killed more people than Hitler" just for starters.

Please stop pretending environmentalist = statist, you are giving us a bad name.

Is this really that hard to understand? Just because sleazy politicians exploited 9/11 doesn't mean that it wasn't a real attack.

The sun is the biggest contributor to climate change.

Yes, instead of telling me I am insane... why don't you tell me where I am wrong...

DDT wipes out malaria... you can not contest this...

Malaria kills 3000 people a day...

Enviros, starting with Rachel Carson gave DDT a bad name, hence getting in banned worldwide... (I do think some countries have reversed that ban though, recently, not completely sure)

So tell me exactly what I am missing about environmentalists(ones that affect policy)/Rachel Carson being responsible for millions and millions of deaths world wide over the past few decades??? Someone, please tell me.

This is a serious discussion, I realize it doesn't have exactly to do with climate change... but environmentalists are heavy hitters when it comes to climate change/fossil fuels/c02 are going to destroy the planet...

and 13ball said that don't think that all enviros are commies and that I'm talking conspiracy... well, then show proof! Instead of saying I'm conspiracist or insane... why don't you follow up on my points about environmentalists... instead of just calling or saying names like a grade schooler would do

it's simple... the socialists/commies in america (which undoubtedly include environmentalists) latched onto unions before the early 80's as a way to oppose free market capitalism and expanded industry... and since unions have all but diminished starting in the early 80's.... these commies and socialists have latched onto global warming and nature as their god as the new way to oppose free market capitalism and expanded industry the past 25 years or so..

I love how simple comments like this, cut through all the B.S. about how c02 and fossil fuels are a grave threat to the planet/climate...

and they illicit no response from the people having "serious discussions" in this thread.

Kind of the same way that actual climatologists with PHD's with advanced research in their discipline are ignored by the establishment when they say that MMGW or climate change by made by man is not any threat to the planet at all... compared to what the sun and the planet are going to do anyway with their natural cycles that will dwarf anything put into the air by humans probably a million fold

Could you please point me to the international treaty or agreement that banned DDT worldwide? Thanks.

What is the other side??? republicans? I didn't say republicans aren't sleazy or corrupt... they are!

The ozone deal was at a different time...when they at least cared somewhat, especially in comparison to right now

unlike now where senators are being bought off in the light of day without a care in the world... and elected representatives care could care less about out our exploding debt...and turning us into a banana republic...

10-15 years ago feels like centuries ago compared to today's political climate...

I misspoke... not world wide... nation wide... but then environmentalists successfully got it banned in many countries after the 60's

Now can you please tell me anything that I have said about environmentalists that is a conspiracy...

What countries banned it and on what dates? Thanks.

I thought I'd heard of all the people who killed more than Hitler. Oh well.

banned in the United States in 1972

hungary 1968

norway and sweden 1970

UK 1984

ehhh... why list over 200 countries? would take too long


"""""""""Once the mainstay of anti-malaria campaigns, as of 2008 only 12 countries were still using DDT, including India and some southern African states."""""""""""""" - World Health Organization ; World Malaria Report 2009.

So I guess your right... there isn't a worldwide ban... just a what? a 97% worldwide ban? sorry for my misinformation.

now tell me that Rachel Carson is not a big reason why millions upon milllllllions of INNOCENT people have died from malaria, and that I'm a conspiratorial crackpot lover

Isn't it amazing how deadly misinformation campaigns (led by carson) can be? literally

How many people have died of malaria in Hungary since 1968?

How many people have died of malaria in Norway and Sweden since 1970?

How many people have died of malaria in the UK since 1984?

You two need a room?

1m die a year, 250m get fevers, mostly in africa. ddt is banned in most african countries

smart, very smart

Do you even know what DDT does? It's horribly damaging to birds, particularly birds that eat fish. It thins their eggs so much their chicks die before they can hatch. Before the DDT ban the bald eagle was in danger of going extinct in the contiguous US. There are other ways to prevent malaria, which isn't that much of a threat in the US anyway. So do you deny DDT was wiping out bald eagles, or not care?

Seriously of all the out-there arguments that get thrown around in this forum, this DDT thing wins some kind of prize. What other generally accepted toxic substance bans do you have a problem with - dioxin, mercury, e-waste?

So 1m people per year are worth less than bird eggs? DDT is by far the most effective pesticide to fight malaria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#DDT...gainst_malaria
DDT is far from perfect and shouldn't be used by everyone. However, it sure as hell should be used more by poor countries.

AFAIK DDT is still recommended by WHO to fight malaria. So no idea what the fuss is all about. Especially wtf does DDT have to do with sun cycles?

Btw, I was always curious what the climate crowd would say if say ten years from now the Earth started to cool down. Would they be the ones preaching for an increase in CO2 emissions or against?

ps Latest NASA predictions for the next few years to come.

who knows how this is related... its the only part of this thread i can stand to read atm.

DDT is still banned by most countries though, despite the WHO rec.