Thousands per year that were so deeply and publicly shamed that you can't find a single example

How about using the accepted legal standard of "clear and convincing evidence", rather than forcing schools to use a much weaker "preponderance of the evidence" standard (50.01% likelihood of guilt is enough to find someone guilty), which is what the Dept. of Ed has forced onto U.S schools. When the standard is that low, it is incredibly easy for wrong judgements to be made and for personal biases to color the final decision. (And you'd be delusional if you don't think the adjudicators on college campuses don't skew more feminist than a standard legal proceeding or jury.)

Anyway why should forcing schools to actually have clear and compelling evidence the guy is guilty - reduce the # of legit rape allegations? Campuses have more apparatus than ever to encourage women to report sexual assault.

Every time I open this thread I weep for humanity. Then I realize that this forum is probably like 3 standard deviations above the mean and I get legitimately depressed.

revots,

This thread is full of specific examples of pervasive biases is rape proceedings, and it ain't biases that disfavor the accused.

Caleb Warner case - just one of the most well-known ones because he was able to get some national press.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...t-rape-culture

You are not following the conversation.

Right because aside from the whole expulsion from school and being branded a rapist thing, there were no consequences? The issue is that a legit procedure would have found him innocent to begin with.

The point is to punish the guilty, correct? Just checking.

When I said one guy I was referring to one guy at the university per year. Not sure how you get from that to one guy in the whole of USA.

Yes thousands of dudes! Thousands!! You still haven't shown how many suffer the consequences of being expelled each year. So of those thousands(!) I am sure many are found to be innocent and suffer no consequences. It's a pretty simple question: how many dudes per year are expelled on rape allegations? How many of those do you believe were falsely accused?

How are breathalyzers going to reduce rape? Do you think women that are too incapacitated to consent are going to be aware enough to make the guy that's trying to take them home take a breathalyzer test? Or are drunk dudes going to get girls to breathalyze to make sure they aren't raping them? Maybe you should be discussing this with the consent-is-hard crowd, I am sure they can help you out with some more realistic ideas.

Lots of guys falsely accused of rape get found innocent. They are who we were talking about.

Yes I am sure you can find one guy whose life was ruined, injustice exists in this world and sometimes the middle class white guys get hit with it. What we need to know before we throw all rape victims under the bus is how many men are accused a year falsely. The first thing we need to know is how many men are expelled from university on rape charges, then an approximation of how many of those men you think are innocent.

That may be who you're talking about, but I'm not less worried about those who were found guilty. We've established there are thousands who were found innocent, we don't know how many were found guilty. Why would I bother trying to look up a random person? If I have a reason to vet a specific person and he was involved in a rape accusation, trial, etc., it wouldn't be hard to find out.

Again, I'm on your side on this issue because rape is a large (growing?) problem and colleges need a way to protect victims in the short term from having to be around the accused, something the legal system doesn't do. But I still think we need to be very careful where this leads. The idea that just because false accusations are relatively rare that means they aren't significant is strange. Our entire legal system has been built around it.

You specifically claimed that those found innocent were publicly shamed, yet you have not provided a shred of evidence of this. I am sorry about the guys expelled wrongly, but quite frankly, I'm more concerned about the guilty guys who never face a hearing due to underreporting and then go on to rape again, and the guilty guys who are found innocent and then go on to rape again, and the guys who are found guilty but not expelled and who then go on to rape again. There are a ton more of these guys, and a ton more women they rape.

It shouldn't be too hard to find something. Honestly can't believe you're serious about thinking someone accused of rape, has his name printed in the newspaper, isn't publicly shamed. Let me take a look and see if I can beat the edit bar.

Edit: well that took about twenty seconds. http://www.wesh.com/news/central-flo...cused/22142172

Edit2: Here's a famous one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

Edit3: http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exo...px?caseid=4052

Wookie, I'm with you that we should be worried about those who get away with rape, perhaps more than those falsely accused because of the former outnumber the latter, but that same argument holds for murder accusations. Are you suggesting we shouldn't worry about those people falsely accused of murder because of those who get away with it?

None of those cases were tried by a college panel. We were talking about college panels.

Your murder analogy is poor, as in murder trials, seldom is there a question as to whether or not a crime has taken place, and the problem of underreporting is quite small.

How often is rape tried by a college panel but not reported to the police?

Just because the analogy isn't perfect doesn't make it poor. Yes, they are different crimes and different circumstances, that doesn't mean those falsely accused are less damaged. I might go so far as to say I'd rather be falsely accused of murder than rape. And considering what happens to convicted rapists in jail, I'd rather be convicted of murder.

I don't think you get to have it both ways. Accusing falsely a woman for being a slut in court has long lasting psychological effects. Accusing a man falsely for being a rapist doesn't involve zero consequence assuming, in the end, his true non-rapist status is confirmed.

Regardless, I'm not finding numbers of expelled students in my 5 minute search. We can guesstimate though. We can assume 5,000 colleges. If your estimation is correct, that 1/college/year is falsely accused of rape, that means we've got 5,000 dudes/year falsely accused.

How many do YOU think are proven to be innocent of those 5,000 per year? How many would have to be NOT proven innocent for you to consider it a problem worthy of attention?

It's a pretty simple question: how many dudes per year are expelled on rape allegations? How many of those do you believe were falsely accused?

I think not every guy is aware of the specifics pertaining to date rape. I certainly wasn't as a 21 year old college student. I think placing breathalyzers in bars and in dorms with some simple poster explaining basic date rape law would RAISE AWARENESS, encourage RESPONSIBLE DECISION MAKING, and would create at least a noticeable dent in the percent of rapes occurring annually on our college campuses.

NOTE: I also advocated much earlier ITT for creating a consent BAL in much the same way that there exists a drunk driving BAL threshold. This BAL could be included in the breathalyzer's informational poster and encourage the breathalyzer's use. I also had stated that there would be intended positive side effects when it comes to drunk driving incidence.

Now if you think all men are rapist as****es who have zero regard for consent or women's rights, and that raising the awareness of men at American universities would make no discernible difference, then we've got nothing else to discuss.

We're not talking about sending anyone to jail.

Yeah, I added that. Look, your contention that I could be falsely accused of rape, tried by a college panel found innocent and that would never get out to the press, internet, etc. and follow me around for the rest of my life when trying to get a job or if someone decides to google me is uplifting. If that is the norm, then I believe someone falsely accused of rape could get over it within a few years. I'm not yet convinced that is the norm, and as soon as it hits the press I'm headed for the nearest bridge.

Imagine how you'd feel, then, if instead of this you were

Goofy, we've already established that waking up with no memory but with cum dripping out of your anus is not that big of a deal. You just had sex with someone you wouldn't have had sex with sober.

You know I never said that, and that sort of mischaracterization is why these conversations go nowhere.

But you really did trivialize the trauma of waking up next to someone who had violated your body the night before, as long as you were too drunk to remember exactly what happened, and even suggested that the woman is at fault for letting it happen.

Why should the defendant not be named? There are no other crimes where the person on trial isnt named, afaik.

There is a huge public benefit in naming a defendant, namely to get other victims to come forward and strengthen the case, given the way statistics work rapists rarely get caught on their first rape.

I did nothing of the sort.

Oh yes you did.