I'm a bit hesitant to answer these as they are very stake specific. I suggest you post in the stats thread to get an idea of averages for the games you're playing.

If you're talking about optimal stats, a) depends on villain in BB and fold equity, b) maybe 10% with premium rundowns, ABBxds and double pairs, c) maybe 15% OOP, 5% IP

I'd say you can prob achieve a bigger bb/100 edge in NLHE, because the edges in PLO take longer to realize due to variance. That said, how often do you see a fish in NLHE go on a 10BI heater over one session? That happens all the time in PLO, which is why they keep coming back. Big pots, more action, more gamble.

Never played with villain before. Thoughts on all streets appreciated.

PokerStars - $0.50 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): 100 BB
BTN: 132.52 BB (VPIP: 29.23, PFR: 20.62, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 679)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A 8 A 7

fold, BTN raises to 2.5 BB, Hero raises to 8.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 6 BB

Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) J T 5
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: (18 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero bets 13 BB, BTN raises to 34.6 BB, Hero calls 21.6 BB

River: (87.2 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, BTN bets 63.14 BB, fold

BTN wins 84.2 BB

Weird/unusual spot. Button seemed kind tight (stats provided) so I decided to go for a loose MP open. The player in SB is a pretty big donk and BB has reggish stats over a small sample and a 6% 3bet over 100 hands. When he 3bets, I figure our hand is good enough to see a flop 3way with a pretty big fish involved.


PokerStars - $0.50 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 99.16 BB (VPIP: 16.33, PFR: 6.12, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
SB: 463.14 BB (VPIP: 87.18, PFR: 41.03, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 39)
BB: 103.5 BB (VPIP: 21.31, PFR: 14.75, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 125)
UTG: 103.58 BB (VPIP: 21.36, PFR: 15.83, 3Bet Preflop: 7.45, Hands: 5,848)
Hero (MP): 100.34 BB
CO: 76.26 BB (VPIP: 24.24, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 67)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6 T 9 9

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB raises to 12 BB, Hero calls 9 BB, SB calls 9 BB

Flop: (36 BB, 3 players) T T A
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 12.5 BB, fold, BB calls 12.5 BB

Very weird spot on the flop when BB checks on a board we expect him to cbet almost always. I thought he could be trapping with AA because there's a weaker player involved, or he could be giving up with KK type hand for the same reason. Some AKhh type hand is also possible.

I decided to bet for protection, intending to give him a lot of credit if he puts money into the pot.

Turn: (61 BB, 2 players) 9
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (61 BB, 2 players) J
BB bets 40 BB, fold

BB wins 58.26 BB

Seems crazy tight but I really can't put him on a bluff.

Dont you think your logic is flawed?
You mean, just because fish comes back we will make more in the long run.
This doesnt mean plo players have a better winrate.

If holdem player and plo player would bumhunt, the nl player would have a bigger winrate. Just because the fish isnt going to have 10 bi runs.
Having almost allways 20-40 % Ev or in other words, by beating fish by 10 % ev(from those ev we are also going to pay rake) we arent going to make more than a nl player who has a way bigger ev advantage.

also please provide data.
People talk without proof?!?
Even the konstruction of their argument isnt logic.

thx for help though anyway.

lol, I'm sorry you don't like my logic

I conceded that NLHE prob has a better bb/100 winrate on average, esp. pre-RB. I was simply pointing out that PLO-games are likely to stay soft for a longer time due to high action and variance. I have no data to back up these claims.

NLHE is certainly much closer to being solved than PLO. Thus edges between regs remain huge, as you yourself pointed out.

So I'm not really sure on several spots in the hand.

#1: Do I want to 3bet this pre? I figure to be way ahead of the UTG opening range but then again my KK are kind of bad.

#2: As played, do I want to cbet this or not?

Why are all Those people point out this without a proof.

In a game vs fish, nl is way more profitable than omaha because the edges are not as near as in holdem.

The edges in omaha between regs are not bigger because of the big advantages they are bigger because holdem game between regs are so close.

At the end you cant even estimate your omaha winnings in the short period of a couple of years especially live.

How could you have an bigger winnrate (real winnrate) in a game where the edges are so close?
It is more a variance thing than real winnings.

Therefore holdem is way way more profitable than omaha.
Reminding ourselfs:
We play poker to win. We arent going to play reg game to destroy other regs. We play them because there are one or two fishes ..

I dont see the profit of playing a game where a fish has closer edges. His mistakes wont cost him as much as in holdem in the long run.

Allthough some guys have this misconception of having dominated the fish by 100 % or something like that(in that margin) it is very uncommon.
Beeing 80-90% Ev wise on holdem is nothing special on the other hand.

If holdem games would be softer(like in some live venues) i dont see the value of omaha. Omaha is just there because holdem games between regs are solved.
(At least some people think they are solved)

Would be nice to listen some threads whome are bringing me to the point where i can solve holdem.

finally got my hands on 60% deal. This is good deal to start playing PLO on iPoker?

Discussion about winrates is good. In NLHE fish calls 2 streets with gut-shot, misses river 8.7% of the time, overall he makes his gut-shot 0.74% of the time it seems, if my math is correct
I guess in PLO it's much easier to make your hand somehow. If fish play passive in NLHE they are so guaranteed to lose money.

Thoughts on this hand? Not sure on my whole line lol

pot-call turn

Where did you get the deal?
Think the rake is higher there and the games are tougher??
Any thoughts on this.

Can someone verifiy?

I'll pm you.
Rake is 6.667% at 10nl. It's 6.667% also at OnGame. At Microgaming it's only 5% at 10nl. I think the standard rake is 5% 3$ cap at all stakes above 10nl (20 25 50+)

@Ph33rox

Hand 1: bet/gii OTF, shove vs raise OTT (ur favorite vs 2pair), call river (u block str8, and villain can't v-bet worse than QJ)

Hand 2: wp

Yea I realized I butchered hand 1 pretty badly, I was surprised to see my equity there vs 2pair and he could be raising semi-bluffs for sure. I actually posted it by mistake (wanted to post another hand), but oh well, nothing like a publicly posted bad play to motivate yourself to study =)

Haha, indeed

Line check please, any thoughts? I see no other play than to ship really, maybe I'm wrong.

It's fine... bit read-dependent, but generally fine.

Raise pre though, plays fine even multiways with the two high suits + AK

GGRJ - You said the AA87ds on JT5r is a bet-call on the flop. I looked into this a bit and I want to hear what you think. SPR on the flop is 5. If we bet 75% of the pot and get jammed on, we need 39% equity to call. I gave villain a button raising range of 50%, and a flop raising range of (2pair+, wraps, pair+oesd). This meant villain was raising 35% of his range on the flop.

Against that range we have 38% equity which is pretty borderline. I guess we're mostly cbetting for FE, and when we get jammed on, we take a breakeven spot just to make sure we don't get exploited? Cause if we bet fold this hand and similar hands we can probably get butchered by aggro players.

The range you assigned him is prob on the tighter side, stuff like TP+gutter (J87, KJ9) is prob in there too. But even if it's exactly as you described, villain only has to fold to the c-bet a few% to make stacking off profitable. He prob also has a peeling range, vs which you have a lot of profitable turn jams.

Off to celebrate midsummer, see you next week, kids!

holy variance!

went from $1200 down to 700 in a month at .10/.25.
and today went from 700 to 950 at .10/.25!

never imagined winning 10 buy-ins in a day :shock:

People win and lose 30+ bi in a session all the time, welcome to plo

Both players in this hand are regs. What should be our thought process here? I thought my hand does far better multyway than heads-up, so I decided to flat and try to invite the cbettor to peel/jam. If I jam, I think I isolate myself vs 95+ a lot, and I don't think I have enough FE. Folding is very sad too. Help?

PokerStars - $0.50 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 114.18 BB (VPIP: 29.44, PFR: 19.66, 3Bet Preflop: 6.57, Hands: 1,302)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 24.07, 3Bet Preflop: 11.76, Hands: 54)
SB: 39.5 BB (VPIP: 24.82, PFR: 8.76, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 138)
Hero (BB): 603.06 BB
UTG: 107.7 BB (VPIP: 22.60, PFR: 16.69, 3Bet Preflop: 5.42, Hands: 2,049)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8 6 A 8

fold, CO raises to 3.5 BB, BTN calls 3.5 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.5 BB

Flop: (11 BB, 3 players) 5 4 9
Hero checks, CO bets 8 BB, BTN raises to 26.28 BB, Hero calls 26.28 BB, fold

Turn: (71.56 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: (71.56 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero checks, BTN bets 34.64 BB, fold

BTN wins 68.34 BB

Pretty easy jam imo, sure our hand plays better MW in a sense but if anything we rather take down the large amount of money already in the pot which will happen more than you might think. We also potentially force the CO to put in more money with worse draws since when we call here we pretty much turn our hand/range face up.

u know any1 who did 50+? have done two 30+ days in a row now but can hardly imagine 50+

Well, I'm sure it has been done, especially at deep tables. Of the top of my head, Hastings beat Isildur for 4.4mil at 500-1k, thats 44bi