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"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! "Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode!

02-03-2012 , 12:14 AM
Quote:
For more than a century, a war has been waged against adverbs by advocates of good writing, by the likes of such literary luminaries as Mark Twain, who said —

I am dead to adverbs; they cannot excite me … There are subtleties which I cannot master at all — they confuse me, they mean absolutely nothing to me — and this adverb plague is one of them.

– and modern scribes like Elmore Leonard, who cautions that only rank amateurs would dare modify the word “say” with an adverb:

To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange. I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances “full of rape and adverbs.”
no offence but lol Americans. That article (and what those writers said) is complete 'trash'.

Why is 'fresh' in 'eat fresh' an adverb? How does one 'freshly' eat?
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 12:24 AM
Well that link was just some information I found on a quick search for adverbs in advertising, it certainly wasn't an authoritative source. But the gist of what is there is true and agrees with modern style guides (Chicago, Strunk & White).
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewOldGuy
Fresh is an adjective and Baked is a verb. No hyphen. If the two words created a new idea that is only expressed properly with the words together and is different from their independent meanings, you would hyphenate, in effect creating a compound word that has a third meaning. Or if they were both adjectives or otherwise compound modifiers to a third word.

Edit: That means you could hyphenate "fresh-baked bread" because in this case they are both modifiers.
"Baked" in the phrase "fresh(ly) baked bread" is not really a verb, but a verbal participle (functionally, an adjective based on a verb.) Normally, you would use a hyphen for two or more words that are meant to fit in a single adjectival slot (e.g. "the plump-bellied, child-beating bastard who reared me"), but I'm fairly sure an exception is made when the first word (of two) ends in -ly. So: "freshly baked bread" versus "oven-baked bread."

But I'm relatively new to grammar as an explicit formalism, having proceeded on a gut level for years now, so please correct any errors in the above. I'm here to learn and yell at people.

Last edited by lagdonk; 02-03-2012 at 12:43 AM.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 12:45 AM
There is a similar discussion in the Steve Jobs book about dropping the -ly from advertising copy.

Jobs wanted the marketing campaign to be "Think Different" instead of "differently". Insisted on it, in fact. Might be fair to say that we have Apple to thank for this trend.

Lol at the deep discussion on whether Subway means to convey that the bread is both fresh and baked.

Edit: ok, link mentions Apple too.

Last edited by RigCT; 02-03-2012 at 12:48 AM. Reason: Looked at the link after posting
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 01:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewOldGuy
Well that link was just some information I found on a quick search for adverbs in advertising, it certainly wasn't an authoritative source. But the gist of what is there is true and agrees with modern style guides (Chicago, Strunk & White).
What about it is true? That adverbs are for amateurs? That only imbeciles with no formal education would modify the verb 'say' with an adverb? Those writers are either at it, or they themselves are the imbeciles.

Could it be that in 'eat fresh' there is a word omitted after fresh?

The example 'ShopSmart' makes sense as a 'flat adverb' as it is an adverb of manner modifying the verb shop; it's hard to imagine, though, how 'fresh' could be an adverb of manner modifying eat.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 01:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagdonk
"Baked" in the phrase "fresh(ly) baked bread" is not really a verb, but a verbal participle (functionally, an adjective based on a verb.)
It's not at all a verb. It's a participle adjective.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 01:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RigCT

Lol at the deep discussion on whether Subway means to convey that the bread is both fresh and baked.
This, quite frankly.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 02:02 AM
There isn't any discussion on what they mean to convey. Everyone agrees on that. We're discussing whether it should be freshly baked or fresh baked (or fresh-baked or whatever). This is grammar thread -- what were you expecting?
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 02:05 AM
Elmore Leonard's comment about not modifying "say" with an adverb seems like an overstatement but is an excellent rule of thumb for two reasons.

1) In writing dialogue, keeping it simple (as in "He said ...", "She said ...") is always very good advice. It is, as Leonard suggests, most often poor writers who self-consciously try to vary these phrases--as in "He exclaimed," "She said loudly," etc. (Or the really awful ones such as "He hissed".)
See the Wikipedia entry on the famously stilted style of the old Tom Swift series for an example of this, such as this actual excerpt from the 1910 novel Tom Swift and His Airship, which illustrates the habit of avoiding simple dialogue:
Quote:
"Oh, I'm not a professor," he said quickly. "I'm a professional balloonist, parachute jumper. ..."
"No professor?" cried Miss Perkman indignantly. "Why I understood from Miss Nestor that she called some one professor."...
"I believe he has a degree, but he never uses it," was the lad's answer.
"Ha! Then I have been deceived! There is no professor present!" and the old maid drew herself up as though desirous of punishing some one. "Young ladies, for the last time, I order you to your rooms," and, with a dramatic gesture she pointed to the scuttle through which the procession had come.
"Say something, Tom — I mean Mr. Swift," appealed Mary Nestor, in a whisper, to our hero. ...
"I — I don't know what to say," stammered Tom.
Etc.

2) The overuse of adverbs, which was also a famously laughable characteristic of this series, is another sign of weak writing -- and gave rise to the jokes called Tom Swifties, in which the adverb takes on an unintended meaning:
"He thinks he's a ventriloquist," Tom said woodenly.
"I'll have a martini," said Tom, drily.
And many more.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 02:51 AM
"Think Different" is pretty clearly wrong according to prescriptive language rules. It also sounds jarring. "Fresh baked" is less wrong, and sounds less jarring. It should be freshly baked bread, just as it should be freshly caught salmon, freshly mixed cocktail, freshly slaughtered poultry, or freshly crowned prince.

Fresh caught salmon
Fresh mixed cocktail
Fresh slaughtered poultry
Fresh crowned prince
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 03:18 AM
It will surprise no one who's read my posts itt that I'm in the camp of those bothered by "fresh baked" anything. Yes, it clearly should be "freshly baked". Yes, I get that eliding the ly is becoming common in advertizing. And no, I don't think the fact that it's common makes it acceptable.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garcia1000
"Think Different" is pretty clearly wrong according to prescriptive language rules. It also sounds jarring. "Fresh baked" is less wrong, and sounds less jarring. It should be freshly baked bread, just as it should be freshly caught salmon, freshly mixed cocktail, freshly slaughtered poultry, or freshly crowned prince.

Fresh caught salmon
Fresh mixed cocktail
Fresh slaughtered poultry
Fresh crowned prince

"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by private joker
There isn't any discussion on what they mean to convey. Everyone agrees on that. We're discussing whether it should be freshly baked or fresh baked (or fresh-baked or whatever). This is grammar thread -- what were you expecting?
I was surprised it took so long to get to the point. 'Freshly baked' seemed kind of obvious to me.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussellinToronto
Elmore Leonard's comment about not modifying "say" with an adverb seems like an overstatement but is an excellent rule of thumb for two reasons.

1) In writing dialogue, keeping it simple (as in "He said ...", "She said ...") is always very good advice. It is, as Leonard suggests, most often poor writers who self-consciously try to vary these phrases--as in "He exclaimed," "She said loudly," etc. (Or the really awful ones such as "He hissed".)
See the Wikipedia entry on the famously stilted style of the old Tom Swift series for an example of this, such as this actual excerpt from the 1910 novel Tom Swift and His Airship, which illustrates the habit of avoiding simple dialogue:
Etc.

2) The overuse of adverbs, which was also a famously laughable characteristic of this series, is another sign of weak writing -- and gave rise to the jokes called Tom Swifties, in which the adverb takes on an unintended meaning:
"He thinks he's a ventriloquist," Tom said woodenly.
"I'll have a martini," said Tom, drily.
And many more.
"It is your best work, Russell, the best thing you have ever done," said Diego languidly.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiegoArmando
It's not at all a verb. It's a participle adjective.
No, it's "not really" a verb. "Not at all" is too strong a formulation, and doesn't honor the verbal basis of adjectival participles; "not really" is the superior choice here. If you doubt this, I invite you to kindly defenestrate yourself.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-03-2012 , 09:54 AM
On this occasion, I will decline your kind offer. I would suggest though that you consider whether or not a noun's modifier could ever be a verb?

In each case, it is either one or the other.

You may also want to consider the participial 'talented', and its corresponding verb form.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-14-2012 , 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BravoMan
Dogs can NOT punctuate, so that's FAKE.

Only cats have the smarts to punctuate...........
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-21-2012 , 11:56 PM
I HATE it when people write about "taking a different tact" when the frickin' word is TACK. TACK. TACK. goddamnit

I just read that in two different posts on this site (one by a professional writer!), and I see it everywhere. How can they even think this is right, when "tact" means one thing only: diplomacy. Of which I have none when it comes to this particular error.

Last edited by NewOldGuy; 02-22-2012 at 12:01 AM.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-22-2012 , 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussellinToronto
Elmore Leonard's comment about not modifying "say" with an adverb seems like an overstatement but is an excellent rule of thumb for two reasons.

1) In writing dialogue, keeping it simple (as in "He said ...", "She said ...") is always very good advice. It is, as Leonard suggests, most often poor writers who self-consciously try to vary these phrases--as in "He exclaimed," "She said loudly," etc. (Or the really awful ones such as "He hissed".)
See the Wikipedia entry on the famously stilted style of the old Tom Swift series for an example of this, such as this actual excerpt from the 1910 novel Tom Swift and His Airship, which illustrates the habit of avoiding simple dialogue:
Etc.

2) The overuse of adverbs, which was also a famously laughable characteristic of this series, is another sign of weak writing -- and gave rise to the jokes called Tom Swifties, in which the adverb takes on an unintended meaning:
"He thinks he's a ventriloquist," Tom said woodenly.
"I'll have a martini," said Tom, drily.
And many more.
I will vouch for 1) wholeheartedly, as modifying speech attribution is almost always the sign of amateur writing, but 2) I agree with to a much lesser extent. Yes, overuse of adverbs in writing is generally bad, but their stylistic proscription has been codified by experts and writers like Leonard into something like holy writ. Adverbs are useful in the right hands, particularly in comic writing, imo.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-22-2012 , 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clare Quilty
Yes, overuse of adverbs in writing is generally bad, but their stylistic proscription has been codified by experts and writers like Leonard into something like holy writ. Adverbs are useful in the right hands, particularly in comic writing, imo.
Very sparingly so, yes.

Leonard is but one of many of the most successful modern authors to recommend avoiding almost all adverbs ("AAAA"). They aren't speaking academically, but from a lifetime of experience and commercial success. This includes the top-selling author of all time, Stephen King, in his book "On Writing".

On the other hand, some very successful novelists get away with them even in attribution. John Grisham's work is full of adverbs, including in speech attribution. But he's just a lawyer, not a real writer.

Last edited by NewOldGuy; 02-22-2012 at 12:53 AM.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-22-2012 , 12:44 AM
I read Ubik by PKD the other day. Adverb overuse was one of many stylistic quirks that jarred me out the story.

Quote:
Somnambulantly, engulfed by the dull, dreary ache of shock, he got out a bent cigarette and lit it.
This isn't a typical example. I'm quoting it just because it made me lol.

Others include starting sentences with present participle phrases. (Verb-ing the something, subject verbed object.) They move from being hackish when overused to being plain wrong when verb 1 and verb 2 can't occur simultaneously, and I counted a few such misuses.

That being said Still, I enjoyed the story.

Last edited by ToTheInternet; 02-22-2012 at 01:06 AM.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-22-2012 , 02:59 AM
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-25-2012 , 01:59 PM
I've been getting annoyed lately by reporters, especially in sports, using the first person when they are probably paraphrasing. They'll say something like "I talked to the coach at halftime and he said we need to focus more on defense but if we can just avoid turnovers and play our game, we've got a chance."
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-25-2012 , 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garcia1000
"Think Different" is pretty clearly wrong according to prescriptive language rules. It also sounds jarring. "Fresh baked" is less wrong, and sounds less jarring. It should be freshly baked bread, just as it should be freshly caught salmon, freshly mixed cocktail, freshly slaughtered poultry, or freshly crowned prince.

Fresh caught salmon
Fresh mixed cocktail
Fresh slaughtered poultry
Fresh crowned prince
"Think Different" is merely "Think: Different", as in, people need to think about being different. It sounds more concise, and dogmatic (fitting for Apple) than "Think Differently". It's jarring by design.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
02-25-2012 , 02:39 PM
My friend typed "will'nt" on Facebook so I corrected his apostrophe placement.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote

      
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