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4 104 154 184 194 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 214 224 254 304 404

Last

09-15-2012 , 03:11 PM

#5076

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymc1

I generally make it .90 because I'm almost always doing it for value.

9bb is too big vs a min open.

It should be clear that you can't use the same sizing vs 2bb opens as you do vs 3 bb opens.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:15 PM

#5077

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostyice

If he is a fish you should fold? What's the point of calling?

Playing a reraised pot with high spr with a fish IP getting more than 2-1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostyice

Why do you 4bet IP? Doesn't this polarize your 4betting range to AA/KK and garbage hands? If you 4bet <1% you never have bluffs and if you 4bet >2% he can start 5bet shoveing really wide

We can 4b for value much wider than AA/KK button vs sb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostyice

Also this does damage our 3bet calling range too as in we can never have a big pair as we 4bet them preflop when we call a 3bet so he can bluff relentlessly at us postflop.

Hardly anyone is observant enough to know what we're doing with what parts of our range. Let alone use that info to exploit us.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:17 PM

#5078

Queen6Suited

banned

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 3,876

if he is bad enough to 3bet different size with premiums and bluffs then he can easily be bad enough to 3bet tiny with premiums ducy

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:17 PM

#5079

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

9bb is too big vs a min open.

Why is that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

It should be clear that you can't use the same sizing vs 2bb opens as you do vs 3 bb opens.

I don't. Vs 3bb opens I 3b 10bb+ oop.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:21 PM

#5080

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen6Suited

if he is bad enough to 3bet different size with premiums and bluffs then he can easily be bad enough to 3bet tiny with premiums ducy

lol he's not bluffing with this size.... He has a hand, just not a great hand.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:29 PM

#5081

Burnss

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,539

so u wana 4b a hand which has very little postflop playability and u prob end up barrellin with tiny amounts of equity? (cause i can see many peple at 10nl flattin 4b there)

also 3b to 7bb or 8bb to minopens oop

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:32 PM

#5082

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

9 bb vs a min open is generally too big because you can get away with making your steals cheaper. If your 3-bet range is purely value then it might make sense to go bigger but I think most people are 3-betting more balanced than that.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:34 PM

#5083

gamma001

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 4,144

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymc1

lol he's not bluffing with this size.... He has a hand, just not a great hand.

That's very definite conclusion to draw from his bet sizing. People bet size weird because they are fish or don't know what size to use, not because they have a good hand, not a bad hand or a monster. You need solid reads to start 4betting 56o. No scratch that you should practically never 4bet 56o because if your 4betting 56o your 4betting your whole range.

edit: and you should be never doing the same thing with your whole range.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:42 PM

#5084

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnss

so u wana 4b a hand which has very little postflop playability and u prob end up barrellin with tiny amounts of equity? (cause i can see many peple at 10nl flattin 4b there)

I expect him to fold pre and flop often enough for it to be profitable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnss

also 3b to 7bb or 8bb to minopens oop

No mention of stacksizes? Just auto default 7-8bb?

If I'm 3betting a min open it's going to be for value pretty much every time. If they're going to call with worse when I make it 9bb then why not make it 9bb? I want them paying to beat my hand when I'm OOP especially if we're like 120bb+ deep which is often the case vs regs in zoom. If I was up against an 80bb fish then I would make it 8bb OOP.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:44 PM

#5085

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

Why would you not 3-bet bluff vs a min open?

bet sizing mentioned are as a default assuming 100 bb stacksizes. 115 bb doesn't change that much.

Also, why 9 bb. Why not 10+bb?

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:50 PM

#5086

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamma001

He's a reg he knows not to 3b this small with a monster..

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamma001

You need solid reads to start 4betting 56o. No scratch that you should practically never 4bet 56o because if your 4betting 56o your 4betting your whole range.

edit: and you should be never doing the same thing with your whole range.

I'm not 4betting my whole range lol. This was a very specific situation where I would have 4b ATC though.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:50 PM

#5087

Queen6Suited

banned

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 3,876

yeah not 3bet bluffing min opens is really silly,.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:54 PM

#5088

Burnss

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,539

peoples ranges SHOULD be wider when they min open which means you prob can 3b bluff more....

Quote

09-15-2012 , 03:56 PM

#5089

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

Why would you not 3-bet bluff vs a min open?

Because people call more IP with higher spr so bluffing works less and bluffing for 9bb has to work too often to be profitable in most cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

Also, why 9 bb. Why not 10+bb?

Because I still want them calling with worse obv.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 04:02 PM

#5090

Suzukishosan

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,303

too nitty? vill is 10/9 with a low agg and WWSF.

i think i'd have called a less than pot sized bet but from my experience nits only over bet with the nuts...

Only nagging doubt was he could just be a donkey overvaluing AK or or AA

PokerStars - $0.50 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $26.75
SB: $46.00
BB: $42.26
UTG: $30.00
UTG+1: $144.04
UTG+2: $54.25
MP: $92.96
MP+1: $52.85
Hero (CO): $75.39

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 2

fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($3.75, 2 players) 3

MP+1 bets $2.00, Hero calls $2.00

Turn: ($7.75, 2 players) 4

MP+1 checks, Hero bets $3.50, MP+1 raises to $10.50, Hero calls $7.00

River: ($28.75, 2 players) 9

MP+1 bets $38.85 and is all-in, fold

MP+1 wins $27.46

Quote

09-15-2012 , 04:02 PM

#5091

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymc1

Because people call more IP with higher spr so bluffing works less and bluffing for 9bb has to work too often to be profitable in most cases.

and you are arguing against people suggesting to make your 3-bets smaller...

people min open because they want to have a good price at their steals. Tightening up isn't the way to combat this.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 04:08 PM

#5092

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

lets say I'm playing 6max zoom, 5nl. I open 3bb UTG+1 with TT. SB limps everyone else folds. Flop KQ5r. SB checks, I bet half pot. I want worse hands to call. In this situation in discussion, people will say "oh but SB never calls worse" how can they say that? I see people call with worse than TT on this type of board plenty for instance if they want to gamble nd try and hit a set on the turn. So why do people say they wont call with worse?

Quote

09-15-2012 , 04:11 PM

#5093

Suzukishosan

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,303

who are these 'people'?

depends on the player really, obv some players can call with worse

Quote

09-15-2012 , 04:13 PM

#5094

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

and you are arguing against people suggesting to make your 3-bets smaller...

See

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymc1

Because people call more IP with higher spr so bluffing works less

^
Disclaimer: My opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

people min open because they want to have a good price at their steals. Tightening up isn't the way to combat this.

Who said we're tightening up? A hand that I may have 3b as a bluff before in BB like 22 for example I can now flat getting 3.5-1 immediate with huge spr. The same goes for other hands I may have turned into a bluff before. SC's Axs etc.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 04:18 PM

#5095

gamma001

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 4,144

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymc1

He's a reg he knows not to 3b this small with a monster..

I'm not 4betting my whole range lol. This was a very specific situation where I would have 4b ATC though.

ATC is your whole range. You should choose to fold 56o and 4b Axs or broadway blockers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

There are people who would call with worse. But there are also people who fold A2 OTB when they can steal. As a general people will not call with 3rd pair or worse and as a general most people will open A2 OTB. This is where hud stats and reads come in

Quote

09-15-2012 , 04:24 PM

#5096

andymc1

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamma001

ATC is your whole range. You should choose to fold 56o and 4b Axs or broadway blockers.

Did you even read my post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymc1

I'm not 4betting my whole range lol. This was a very specific situation where I would have 4b ATC though.

People don't tell me I have to have a balanced range in this spot.

Quote

09-15-2012 , 05:19 PM

#5097

Micro Zoom Addict

adept

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 777

Moved up to 10nl for weekend. Running goooooooood, 8BI in 1.2k hands.

BTN: $5.45 (54.5 bb)
Hero (SB): $13.89 (138.9 bb)
BB: $11.36 (113.6 bb)Monkey
UTG: $10.12 (101.2 bb)
MP: $13.03 (130.3 bb)
CO: $33.50 (335 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.60) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, BB raises to $1.30, Hero calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.20) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2.20, Hero calls $2.20 Good turn to bluff not sure if i should shove

River: ($7.60) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.90Me getting scared of him no vbetting/ bluffing river, BB raises to $7.56 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.66

Spoiler:

[/hand_history][/converted_hand]

BTN: $2.18 (21.8 bb)
SB: $3.15 (31.5 bb)
BB: $2.82 (28.2 bb)
UTG: $10.46 (104.6 bb) 10/9 nit
Hero (MP): $10 (100 bb)
CO: $2.24 (22.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K

UTG raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 2

(2 players)
UTG bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.15) 4

(2 players)
UTG bets $1, Hero calls $1

River: ($4.15) J

(2 players)
UTG bets $3, Hero calls $3Not sure what i beat on the river but i can't click fold with 2 pair even if he is a nit

Spoiler:

[/hand_history][/converted_hand]

Quote

09-15-2012 , 07:28 PM

#5098

Burnss

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,539

Poker Stars, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13936812

Hero (BTN): $300.02 (150 bb)
SB: $30.50 (15.3 bb)
BB: $184.60 (92.3 bb)
UTG: $575.07 (287.5 bb)
MP: $236.31 (118.2 bb)
CO: $357.45 (178.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 5

2 folds, CO raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, 2 folds, CO calls $8

Flop: ($27) 4

(2 players)
CO bets $10, Hero raises to $35, CO calls $25

Turn: ($97) J

(2 players)
CO bets $32, Hero raises to $67, CO raises to $310.45 and is all-in, Hero calls $186.02 and is all-in

River: ($603.04) 3

(2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $603.04 pot ($2.80 rake)
Final Board: 4

Hero showed 5

and won $600.24 ($300.22 net)
CO showed T

and won $0.00 (-$300.02 net)

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.