Its really amazing that the guys who apparently made a killing in real jobs still invest so much of their valuable time to provide guidance to all these greenhorns.

It's one thing to bring some realism. It's another thing entirely to spam a thread with garbage posts filled with negativity. I'm not arguing one side or the other, I'll just argue that as a lurker of this thread Bump needs to stop posting.

Nothing wrong with giving back to the community.

No, it's nothing like a Ponzi.

Perhaps some people enjoy wearing suits and attending meetings. Maybe not everyone is interested in telecommuting. And possibly some people enjoy making money while playing a game they love, and are willing to rides the ups and downs to do so.

Just because someone enjoys a different working lifestyle than you do doesn't make them wrong.

No, it doesn't *seem* like it; that's pretty much your entire raison d'être on our forums.

LOL, what???

bumpnrun - empathizing with the pros since 2008.

And how about people who make money from poker and are enjoying themselves doing so? Of all people that could lecture others on their limited view of other careers, you're among the last I'd choose. As for complaining about disdain - the hypocrisy oozes.

This.

How are they garbage posts?

There are young poker celebs with insane success saying don't be a pro. You have old grizzled vets saying don't go pro. There are guys in between (vloggers) saying don't go pro. There are 2p2 "celebrities" like curioso and dgaf saying gtfo of poker. You have normal guys with solid careers that are saying normal job > poker. We have countless failed pgcs and stories about "pros" who have ruined their lives over poker. We have irrefutable proof that poker (especially cash) is declining, games are drying up.

And... yet the degens itt think it's some vast conspiracy... i mean come on people.

Bobo it's not a ponzi, it's a PYRAMID SCHEME that's been propped up by poker sites, poker training sites, casinos, and everyone in between who's trying to sell you something to "make you rich".

No one ITT is advocating for anyone else to be a pro though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

And lol at how are they garbage posts?

Exactly. While not a pro currently I have had 14 consecutive profitable years.

Poker is fun and profitable still but just not hot like it was in 2000-2011

Sorry you're so bitter and likely projecting feelings of degeneracy on us.

We are poker players who love poker. Why are you here again?

I don't go on chess forums and tell people they are not pros. I have a life.

I won't bother covering this again, as Rich did a good enough job.

Not sure what this has to do with bumpnrun's post.

Who are these degens, and who is talking about a vast conspiracy? WTF are you even talking about??

Yes, straw man indeed.

No, it's not.

If everyone would make more expansive use of the ignore function, this would be quite a pleasant thread to read.

All we are trying to do here is answer the question in the thread title. If you don't want that question answered candidly and honestly just say so.

That's good if you love poker. However, the question is about life as a poker pro and whether it's worth the investment. I've come across many people like you who "love poker" and when I look at their graphs on sites like Sharkscope, you can extrapolate that they're making about 1/5 of minimum wage or something ridiculously low. Which is fine if you truly love the game, but as a job, that's clearly a terrible wage and not viable as a job.

You're homeless. You live in a ****ing car. You're a "pro" playing on a nonexistent br. And it appears you've burned all bridges in your life to the point your mother won't even co sign for you. You think health insurance is a scam. And you claim to be a genius. WTF?!?!?

What am I missing? It seems bump summed up your situation pretty accurately.

Yep. Says it all really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

He makes a valid point. Is that what you consider being a pro? Because that sound like an awful way to live your life - completely unsustainable in the long run and much worse than a real job.

I've never claimed I'm a pro. And I've never advocated for anyone to play poker professionally. Again, straw man.

So what's his point then? He isn't making any kind of valid point he's just making an ad hominem attack because he can't debate the topic sensibly.

the question is about gifted people rising up. there's lots doing this but people don't care b/c poker is not hot like it was.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Stars msnl+ cash reg since 07 here. Can confirm it is not advisable to pursue poker as career for large majority. Even if you're crushing, it is no guarantee you will be crushing forever. I have literally seen thousands of "good online cash regs" come and go throughout the years, with maybe 2-3% tops winning long-term, not even accounting for overall happiness etc. Gogol's nose, AverageGreg, TopHat5757, tuff_shark, DeanoSupremo, Munez_star, king10clubs and maybe 10-15 more, on stars anyways, are the only ones I can think of not counting the few nosebleed guys like Sauce123, of literally thousands of regs.

This should give a decent perspective on the long term difficulties of online cash game success compared to similarly paid fields, especially in tough online environments today. Furthermore, even if you do well long term, even if you love the game, the long term grind combined with the stress and the tricky situation of being your own boss in all aspects of life is a tough thing to tackle for most. There are tons of professional and personal pitfalls to fall in along the way as a poker player. Investing as you go both financially and health-wise will be incredibly important for long term success and happiness.

Personally I have always loved poker and have been fortunate enough to have the talent to make decent money throughout. Even though I love the game still, the thought of grinding super hard for yet another decade+ is a reality that I am trying to avoid through investing as well as strategically mapping out my non-poker passions into plan B career paths.

Advice to up and comers : If you love the game and are objectively great, continue your path making money and having fun, but do not underestimate the pitfalls and dangers looming. Keep a steady schedule. Work Hard. Invest in solvers/coaching/etc. Avoid playing too many tables. Quality>quantity always. Stay healthy. Meditate/work on mindfulness. Stay social in all aspects. Read non-fiction books. Invest money wisely as early as possible. Do not over-spend just because you have the money right now and its tempting. Think long-term. Plan out at least 1-2 realistic plan B options that you will set into action immediately upon the situations context changing. Above all, understand that being in a position where you can play poker for a living in your underwear, especially in today's online arena, is a temporary privilege. Be realistic, strategic and have a long term lens. Focusing on all of this will help you maximize your current skill advantage while preparing you best for long term success with or without poker.

I am not here to crush peoples dreams, just to give an honest veterans perspective on what I have seen and believe. "The dream" is of course still possible, just not a wise long term goal for the majority attempting, even many of the current crushers, if history is to be believed.

Hope this helps people see the reality of long-term online cash game success viability. As they say, its a tough way to make an easy living.

Kinda ironic some of these posters that have such negative views on guys playing poker for a living on w/e scale. Yet here they are spending all this time on a poker forum telling us what a waste of a life it is and how we are the lowest of the low in society.

Are they actual White Knights maybe? Or Angels?

Is this because being gifted and rising up now describes reaching the stakes people used to start at 10 years ago?

I.e. who cares if you are gifted enough to rise up and crush a $50 or $100 game anymore? That's still a poor wage and there's not much dead money above that anyway. It's a huge technical achievement, but it's not worth much so not much point bragging and don't expect too many 'followers' or much PR.

Just speaking about myself he 100% nailed it with his post. I’ve been around for quite some time though, which obv is a huge advantage. But I can still make 6 figures playing less than 200k hands/year.

I'm a 10+ year pro as well and I approve of this post emphatically. Just wish I would of read one like it and listened about 7 years ago .

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...07/?highlight=

That's what he's referring to.

I'm saying poker is not hot like it was a decade ago so even a high stakes crusher is not a household name or even a name known within the poker community. There are still people who go from micros to high stakes (not 50/100; that is small stakes) but we don't see them as "gifted". They won't get any PR because we don't care/look up to good poker players like we used to.

Also we have been burned by looking up to "gifted" poker players in the past as there is always some wrinkle that makes me not look up to them.

I know galfond is great but once he had a losing year, I stopped looking up to him. I don't care if it was a low volume year. You can't lose money over the course of a year and be a professional. Also, I question anyone who seems to prefer teaching over playing.

No one likes helmuth or negraneu it seems like and did they even start at small stakes?

Durr welched on a bet with jungleman and is always hiding somewhere.

Isildur hid his name for a while which is kinda lame and seems to have a lot of losing years. Even if he is up money lifetime, I don't look up to maniacs.

Dan Bilzerian is good at poker I guess but I question where he got his money. Actually, he's kinda awesome but it has nothing to do with poker.

Doug Polk is funny and a great poker player but he kinda just talks about bitcoin. It's one thing to play poker with bitcoins, but he is just talking about bitcoin. like he is a fluent crypto programmer.

I *think* one player is trying to learn mandarin in a year. At least learn a cool useful profitable language like Python or do something cool.

There is one type of player that I would consider "gifted" and look up to: A player that is consistently clearing 250k+ playing cash online.

With one caveat: They must be doing it from America. Now that's gifted.