Habs you're rationalizing some pretty ****ty behavior.

According to you it's totally justifiable for people/ companies to **** other people and entire industries for short term gains. Basic behavior right? Not going to be around long, doesn't concern you/ not your problem.


I guess you can justify this as well:

Basic behavior right?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-say-much.html

edit:

+1 to Chinamaniac. Just take a look at small stakes- 5 grinders who subscribe to videos/ training/ study groups etc and the 1 fish who thanks to training videos went from being 62/8 to 22/11. With the industry taking major cuts into rakeback/ vip, nobody but the site wins. The rake eats everything

he is providing liquidity you filthy pleb

Selfish and because most of them arent as good as the bull*hit they're trying to sell

1 deck game its not rocket science. Just lol how so many people want to make it out to be so much more difficult than it really is. People trying to to brand and monetize themselves, while thinning the game out for the others. I hear someone shilling these things or themself live makes my toes curl. The whole selling some 3rd rate nonsense, book or podcast etc..


It's just another husle

wrong

Lets kill Run It Once!!!

This is pretty spot on.
I might not agree with it but I can understand the rare person who says "i'm done with poker after college" not giving a **** about the future of poker and making videos for a few dollars. But most people 5 years ago were dumb enough to think they'd print insane amounts of money from poker forever. If you don't believe me look at their spending habits and look at how many good players were instantly broke after black friday bc they had 50k or whatever on FT , spent like drunken sailors and had nothing in the bank.

It's the sites fault too but the players were the ones clamoring for higher and higher table maxes, the ones inventing all kinds of software, the ones making the videos etc

I don't remember anything like that, stars has had a super high table max since around when they started.

And? Expecting 1000's of people to ignore their own gain for the good of people they don't know, emphasize with or in many cases like is ridiculous and implausible. When millions of people enjoy a game like poker there is going to be a demand for teaching material and an interest in strategy that someone is going to fill.

seriously, no one is owed soft games. they are ilinevitably going to get tougher due to increased competition and technological/science advancements. how can you hate on people for inventing software? lol?

also the person who linked to martin skreli. I mean really? "screwing over an entire industry"? why do people think poker should be a golden goose forever, let alone that it realistically could be?

as for the training site coaches from in the past, there are a few who are still around and do alright. most of those either don't or rarely make videos anymore. many play different games to what they used to. Ansky, Whitelime, Vanessa Selbst,
but in general a lot of people move on.

plenty of successful players from years ago no longer play much or at all these days, including non video makers.

and even if it weren't they case, them making poker tough is whatever. scientists also make poker tougher. what about the university who solved FLHU? are you going to hate on them?

there is for sure some sense of entitlement here (to beatable/easy games). also let me ask this, how many professionals ITT would give up $1000 so a few random regs who play the same game will be distributed $5000? none

this is also a good point

Environment going downhill year after year, animals die out, sea is getting polluted, yadada, but you know what? It was inevitable with our system. Why do you feel entitled to have a good sustainable environment? So much entitlement. Was inevitable to happen, wat can you do, why stop now. Why are u hating on monsanto or BP, they just tried to maximise profits, if they wouldnt have done it trump would have

terrible analogy. again shows sense of entitlement. there's obvious reasons why the real life environment is important, the poker environment (and make no mistake, this literally means the ability of pros to make money long term) has little to no similarity

real life environment is about the world, quality of life of everyone etc. poker environment is a few select people making money vs. Making less (but still good) money and having to work more for it

The "it was going to happen eventually, there was money to be made so who cares mentality" is kinda boggling.

Do you guys have the same thoughts about other more important issues? Global warming? Fracking? Over fishing? Deforestation? What about the bailout? Or the war on drugs? There's so much apathy around here.

Do you not give a damn about anything?

Calling for others to be dismissive / apathetic about the issue is crazy man. People get worked up things that are important to them- that in their opinion weren't handled correctly. That's normal and their right to do so.

To be clear, the posters who are discontent aren't placing all the blame and frustration solely on training sites. The anger is aimed at the entire ****ing situation.

From the players, to the poker sites, the training sites, the software developers, poker coaches etc. Everyone dropped the ball / out for themselves. If you thought about what could have been (with a little collaboration / forethought) instead of what currently is, you would feel the frustration. That is if you weren't apathetic.

I think the phrase "there's no honor amongst thieves" fits this industry and everyone involved in it quite well.

---

Irt your 25/hr comment. I don't disagree but come at what point is a player going to call it quits?

A person could just get a real job with less stress with even less pay and still be killing it in comparison to someone grinding for 25/hr. Factoring in health care/ dental, 401k matching, sick leave, paid vacation, regular raises, no self employment taxes etc etc.

I'd argue anyone grinding for that hourly isn't moving forward with lives / situation will get way worse in 2-5 years compared to someone plugging along with comparable hourly at a normal job.

It's funny the guys who are pissed are actually aware of the situation imo while the others living in denial are still looking at the positive side. Hey guys! Poker isn't dead! I can still make $25/hr at this game and I can coach you how!

how can you serious compare the poker situation with overfishing, deforesting etc?! lol, who is being harmed when poker gets tougher? poker players

agree with it or not, the poker opportunities (earning potential, perks vs time of study, qualifications and investment necessary) are still very good and that's exactly why people in many countries from all over the world are MORE THAN HAPPY to outwork many of the posters ITT.

"omg I used to be able to make 200/h doing almost nothing now it's only 100 and soon it'll be 50"

most of the ppl who make poker tougher (new regs) are basically the same as the people complaining, what gives you more right to the profitable situation than you? not willing to share??

and yes for some poker is not the best solution for their lives (in some cases it was, and now isn't). nothing wrong with quitting and moving on, like many have before and many will. others will happily take your space. you are competing in a global market.

everyone has the right to say they don't like the games getting tougher. I don't like it either. but blaming people whether it be training sites, stables, whatever is definitely entitled.
also I see the argument consistently ITT that it's ok for sites to do it, because they make so much but not for producers cause they make so little. that's not very consistent.

also what is perhaps even more inconsistent is that many ITT complaining wouldn't be where they are today if it weren't for forums, training sites and the alike.

Are you that obtuse clay?

Yes the issues I posted are far more important than poker.

But the same principles apply- majority of people do not give a **** / are not informed about the problem and continue to take giant ****s in the sandbox so to speak and eventually nobody in whatever sandbox it may be (poker, fishing, the environment etc) is not going to be able to play. You cant comprehend that?

I see a general trend of people who are or once were involved with training/ coaching / stables pop in and try to rationalize themselves to other people because they don't want to feel like ****.

---

And yeah you're right, people living in the 3rd world are going to keep grinding and the pros living in the first world will continue to drop. And the sites will continues to squeeze and the edges will drop even further. And when the few fish don't even feel like supporting someone living in the 3rd world, then the 3rd world grinders will drop off completely as well. The only people left will be degens that don't care about absurdly high rake and regs that love poker / absurd variance / making very little $.

Don't kid yourself. Get off your high horse. You wouldn't be playing poker for significant money if there wasn't a weak player / you thought you didn't have an edge.

Also, I highly doubt you give a damn about bigger issues if you can't even see the light about poker assuming poker has been signif part of your life / livelihood. It should hit home to you agaib assuming you're really invested in poker. You see it everyday. It's not fishing or deforestation that might not even see. The apathy is outrageous.

the collateral damage of all those issues of far greater concern than poker. in poker, perhaps eventually poker won't be profitable for anyone/very few people. that's all. no one outside of the industry, let alone the entire world and future generations to come are affected. that is the difference.

poker gets tougher for YOU because/when other people LIKE YOU also start playing poker. what gives YOU more right? YOU got there first?

second half of your post I can't comprehend. of course I play poker because I think I have an edge. why do you play poker? this theory you have about the weaker players being on "your side" and against third world countries is some conspiracy stuff with no basis.

also again, pretty hypocritical when the majority of the people ITT, if not all, have used twoplustwo forums for posting strat/reading strat/asking for advice to improve. why is that better? because it's free? because the advice is worse than training videos?

@Siculamente:
I am not sure why you interpret my posts as if I was ok with that behaviour. I just tried to explain that this behaviour is common among mankind but I am not ok with it.(Syria, environment for example) I am just shocked how so many can't/want to see how bad our behaviour is for others and rather see people being prisoners in their home countrys instead of becoming a threat for some pieces of our wealth.

I never understood why people tried so hard to demonize online poker as a profession. They looked for excuses why they had to quit eventually and do a good old 9-5 job. They want to give something to society. But thats bull****. There are so many jobs which give zero to society only trying to get people to spend money on their useless products. Poker is entertainment. People spend money on leisure time in different ways and we should have tried hard to get a lot of that money by making poker a fun experience.

We should have treated poker as a business and in this world almost nobody shares his trade secrets. I even never understood why so many players esp. tournament players were rooting for others to win big. At the end they are competitors for the money I want to win.

Are you currently or have been involved with coaching training sites stables? Did I say the world issues were less important than poker? Did I say or imply that the collateral damage of poker was greater than overfishing or fracking etc?

Where did I say fish would be on my side? I simply said they would stop donating to some grinder from Hungary or Bulgaria or where ever else. Poker fish aren't fish in real life, they know how important a few hundred $ is in countries like those and don't want to feel like their donating to charity. Fish even bring it up in the chat box

You don't comprehend because you don't want to. That's ok. A person can only show someone the path, they can't make them walk it.

except many/most people wouldn't be where they are if it weren't for the communities like forums, training sites etc.
and people support each other because there is definitely a community aspect to this game, as well as actual friends you can make along the way.

also it's funny because people watching the videos are in a similar tragedy of commons scenario/prisoners as the video makers. if no one watched them they'd arguably all be better off.

yes but I have zero need to defend myself. anyone who posts in forums about strat is being blatantly hypocritical as I said with no response multiple times.
fwiw to be clear I also think poker sites have the right to increase rake, and they don't owe poker pros beatable games. I have no shares in poker sites and in fact my interests are quite the opposite of my view point of this.

no you didn't say world issues are less important than poker but the comparison is laughable and frankly insulting. the downside to all of those issues for the third (maybe more) time is they have huge repercussions on innocent victims for generations to come, here the only "victims" are some entitled people who don't acknowledge how lucky they were to begin with. and that's if we even accept poker wouldn't have gotten tougher anyway, which is hard to believe due to competing against literally a world of people who want to make money. not just third world. plenty of people in first world are uneducated/lazy/can't or don't want to find a "normal" job and are happy to try play poker. oh and science, and technology =o

and that is again ignoring the blatant hypocrisy of anyone who has shared strategy on forums.

what you say may be true about a small group of rec. players but that's more or less minor racism. i agree rec players are often smart people but if they are willing to "donate" to first world pros but not third world, well.

and plz stop speaking as if you are some genius above all. thx
(your last quote, lol)

I think everyone here agree there are a lot of things that make the games tougher.
The thing is we, poker players, will never have any control over gouvernments or pokerstars decisions.

We can't do anything about market regulations and things like that and history has shown pokerstars don't care about the players. They can increase the rake, people complain and threaten to cash out but still play.

The difference with poker education is that it comes from the community of players.

So if players want to fight something, of all the stuff you mentionned, poker education is the only one on which poker players can potentially have a positive (even very slight) influence.

I'm not saying it's realistic to believe the community can prevent something like poker education from prospering. It's obv hopeless. I'm just saying it's a little bit less hopeless to open a new thread about training sites than it is to open a new thread about rake or to go on strike...

But how knows ? I remember a time where people would get exited when a top reg started to produce videos and make him feel like he's so cool for doing so. Now everyone is like Oh **** him how selfish !

And of course we should hate on the university who solved flhu. If they are that smart why not use their abilities to do something useful instead ? I will never understand people who wants to solve this game so bad. How nerdy do you have to be ? To me the beauty of the game has always been we're all clueless to begin with (from a gto perspective) But some smarter guys will be able to beat the game just by being a little bit less clueless than population in the games they want to play. How boring will poker be when every single spot has a gto answer

yes but don't you see how ironic it is that we are discussing this on a forum where people give/ask/share advice for free? many players would credit their success (at least in the beginning) to forums, outside of training sites/coaching if they use those.
why don't we all stop posting on 2p2 too?

as you said the demand has been there from players too. the same players who now want to blame someone/something. most of the most successful players of today continue to work hard and do well, and don't blame/hate on training sites/forums etc for games getting tougher. btw I'm not referring to myself in this category.

as for the flhu thing, that's your opinion and I'm not saying I clearly agree or disagree but there are plenty of reasons people want to shove games. human nature, being competitive and of course money. you can't say they should use their ability to do something else instead, it could be their passion. plus it's game theory/math/science study.
nevertheless anyone could say the same about poker players playing poker.

Enough said

lol

DC created depositing fish? who u kidding? fish know of rio,dc,bfp ect? no way. We are talking about loose passive fish, the real fish in poker not some weaktight reg who is folding too much in every situation.

Agree with all what TimStone has said and nobody can argue with that bc it is a fact. Unfortunately, there is no chance that rio closes shop soon cause the owners just make too much damn money with it. Why would galfond do that, he isnt even playing anymore which tells you right there how much guys like him care about 100nl getting tougher, its 0%!