Tell me, where are the up and comers shooting up through micro to highstakes nl completely destroying regs and fish alike? There aren't any. Everyone just gets a smaller piece of a shrinking pie year after year.

NL200 has taken a huge dive the past couple years, NL100 is up next. Five years from now I wouldn't be surprised only seeing NL50 run during non peak hours.

---

someone in here mentioned that these coaches/ video trainers are just selfless people who love to teach / only a sociopath would be concerned about themselves. But that's exactly what the trainers did- only thought about themselves and ****ed everyone else over.

If a BIG fish that played in the same games they played ever approached them for coaching THE COACH WOULD TELL THAT PERSON NO. and if per chance they did because the money was too great, and the other regs in the same game knew what was going on- they would give that coach major ****, which is what you see here.


clay- keep trying to defend yourself even though according to you, you have ZERO reason to do so What's wrong? Guilty conscience?

me listing new comers who have moved up through the stakes is pretty pointless and a few examples won't prove my point anyway.
of course a lot of people are making less, but few of these guys are working hard. instead of complaining it gets harder, and doing no work/the same work will likely result in less winnings. but why not accept doing some more work?

I know plenty of people as I said who are increasing their expectation on a yearly/monthly basis and moving up stakes etc. this is what hard work can accomplish, and if you do it right the pay off vs work is absurdly good compared to what literally 99.99%+ of the world could hope for. again, these people are not the ones you see complaining and that's no coincedence. rational thinking correlated with success. and don't get me wrong, I am not the hardest worker and I'm sure I will regret not working harder and making more out of this opportunity in the future.

and what % of the damage do you think is from training sites vs. rake changes, segregation, Black Friday, advancements in softwares??

i don't agree video makers are selfless at all and didn't say that. there is some element of enjoying teaching (similar to a lot of people posting free strat here) which does apply to some people though. I enjoy teaching - I used to post strat/help a lot here and have thought multiple times about volunteering for some math tuition etc because I enjoyed it years ago when I did it. (this is not one of my arguments don't worry, have to say this to not get cherry-pick quoted, zzz)

btw. just because you're really asking for it with your dumb choice of words "training vid makers f everyone else over"
hypothetically, let's say you are right and the training sites completely f the games up alone.... you sound rly angry. why would any video makers care about how much you make?
we can ignore all the relevant points for a couple min cause it'll be great to hear your responses.

and have you had or do you have a training sub? feel free to dodge

in a zero rake environment somewat true in reality you just dont get it. if you have a pie which is enough for 10 people everything is good. next year you have the same pie for 100people and you taught all those people how to eat faster. even if you improved in eating faster alot more than the other 99 guys it wont be enough. it's not that hard to see thats not sustainable in the long run.
all you guys come up w is work abit harder. it's bull****, its way too late for that. yes, you can try to work harder and harder and harder and if you are lucky you make 80% next year what you make this year. no matter how hard you work you gonna make less and less and less year in year out no matter how much you improve. Once you realize that though you start investing time in other endavours which will have a much great roi...


everything apart from legislation is a direct result of training and education. if there werent too many regs they wouldnt have changed rb, if there werent too many regs there would be no need for seating scripts, etc.
every negative change over the years (apart from legislation) is a DIRECT result of too many regs (overfishing). THOSE REGS DONT APPEAR OUT OF THIN AIR, THOSE REGS WERE TRAINED OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN

would be abit hypocritical huh? i dont have a subscription and i never had one, however i multiaccount those sites and watch those videos.
Do i enjoy it? no, i would rather watch a nice tv series or masturbate in teh shower but im forced to watch some guy stroking his own ego instead for 45minutes if i want to know why teh entire player pool at my stake starts 3betting 15% out of teh sb one day or start cbetting 1/3 pot otf on another day when nobody had ever done that before.

hey I said games are getting harder, and eventually will die. again that's for many reasons including training sites. in the mean time, complaining accomplishes you nothing, but working harder will make it at least last longer (and contrary to what you believe it's possible, at least for now, to improve yourself > decline rate)

like most people, I want to/expect to quit poker someday. even if it doesn't die down/money is good. it's just not what I want to do forever. I'll eventually spread my time into other things and transition.

digga chill mal, so agro
again I have to say a) forums b) you are one of the people who were a result of education and most likely wouldn't be where you are if it weren't for it. so hating on those who provided for you seems questionable to say the least. and yes, it's in the past

if no one supported/subbed training sites they wouldn't exist. or maybe they would, and the info would be incredibly valuable.. more valuable than if everyone subbed it. but we would be better off if no one subbed to them.. sound familiar?

and actually sicul honestly the example you gave. it's a tough spot. also tragedy of commons/prisoners. if I were friends with the regs, it's a different story. but if not, it really depends. if I knew for sure no one would teach the player, no I wouldn't. but if it's virtually guaranteed someone else will teach him anyway, then I sure wouldn't blame someone for doing so with that logic (not that I would "like" that fact or encourage it)

I never had a subscription - I just freerolled the hundreds of hours of free content e.g. podcasts they put out to try to get subscribers and coaching students - effectively they're auditioning for students and as we know from a popular genre of pornography, once you've recorded the audition and put it out there you don't need anything else from the person auditioning.

Audio content suits my lifestyle commuting better anyway. Every time the players analysing the hands used terminology or a line of argument I wasn't familiar with I looked it up, eventually I found I could guess what they were going to say.

For example I listen to the Carroters poker podcast and he has a book coming out soon. Now before I had heard of him the chance I would buy his book was 0% obviously, now it's more like 5%-10% depending on reviews (not just good or bad but whether I think it can teach me something), so it's obviously +EV for him to give all that stuff away for free, but its the tragedy of the commons situation repeating itself in miniature though, because its +EV for so many trainers to give away stuff for free, that eventually nobody has to pay for anything, but if one person stops doing those auditions they just disappear from people's awareness and it makes no difference anyway.

Not having a subscription I don't know what such a video would say, but surely people are doing these things because they think they are +EV?

ofc he means why it's +ev

tbh at this time i personally dont care too much any moar. i spoke to ****loads of regs lately, strong regs who made alot of money back in the day and still making bank. they are all highly pessismitic and trying to get out.
i did alot of thinking myself and came to teh conclusion i got to get out as well. as things currently are i probably have another 1-2 decent years left before i would need to drastically change the lifestyle i got accustumed to.
so im grinding part time, try to keep up with newest developments and focus everything else on new endevaours. obv since im on teh way out now i could start make a couple of videos or start coaching (its not like nobody asked me down the road over and over again while my answer was every single time: i dont share information). also it would be quite an ethical grayline (since people like to refer to ethics so much) if i decide that poker has no future and i start charging somebody to teach him to survive in an industry which i decided has no future )

i'm still passionate about this bc i love poker and there is still a tiny spark of hope people may come to their senses but prolly not going to happen

pretty sure it's too late even if all training sites instantly shut tomorrow which they won't, it'll probably delay the inevitable but at some point the game will get closer and closer to being solved and enough people will find ways to access the information. "some point" can easily be a number of years to come but then again plus who knows what sites like stars will do

Well presumably the same reasons why anything is +EV.

While its true ton of ppl just flat out copy what sauce or zaza or someone else is doing, most of those guys are also the first ones who have to get out since they don't actually study. Average reg is still super lazy, they like to copy what good players do, but they dont learn the reasons why. Once every reg starts to grind solvers then its gonna be gg atleast in stars, but i dont see that happening in the near future since the big majority of the regs today play differently from solvers in most of the standard spots reg vs reg even in 200/500nl.

Nothing to see here guys, past is in the past, no point in stopping lets put more fuel on a fire, mtt live pros gonna keep mtt live pro'ing they know what's up

the problem is that this:

describes a too large percentage of people in today's sub culture.

there are DFS pros who literally just post lineups for twitter follows - some of them really quite good!

and when i first started grinding it, i tried to bring up to a few people the effects of training sites on poker and why toutting (giving picks) in DFS is bad, but got shot down so fast with "im doing pretty well" and "giving back to the community" that i decided it's futile, and while i don't mind trolling poker cuz it's a cesspool, i actually meet a lot of those guys at live events and don't wanna be known as a hater

past is in past is what tim said. and if you meant me with mtt live pro i played nearly 1m hands of z500, did sne 3x with different games etc. i have a pretty good idea about the environment in pretty much all the (nl) games

The reason you don't want to alienate yourself from the DFS community is the same reason people are giving away information.

Why do you think every comment is directed at you? You seem really defensive itt about things you have zero reason to defend, right?

However I do suggest to you when the games pass you by and no one wants to pay to hear yourself stroke your own ego... when you have to get a real job (maybe your first?) that you look in the corporate sector seeing they actually promote people for being shortsighted, extremely greedy and giving no regard to anyone but themselves.

who did you mean then?

and nice job not answering about the sub
i made a tonne of valid points which you couldn't think of anything to respond with, which i had to repeat to you. you could do nothing but randomly took selective fragments of your liking combined with personal insults to try prove a moot point. i responded to everything you said however ludicrous. truly laughable how personally you seem to take this. especially since i just happen to be someone who is posting in the thread. (but you know, i represent the whole industry). and how you continue to blame others for whatever issues you are facing in poker. after what i can only assume to be a decline in your poker career, you finally found something you can blame - congrats!

you can keep demonising me all you want. it's embarrassing. i am a terrible person, who does terrible things and wants the world to suffer.. compare me to bp oil, ppl who deplete forests and fish of the ocean. (what)

I owe you nothing. seriously. if you reallyyyy () think me being greedy for a few bucks costed you a bunch more then perhaps you deserve to think that. i can't believe that you don't know me, yet if you met me would have this prejudice against me because i made some training videos lol

wasted enough time on this. this seems like a good point to call my last post in the thread. have fun thinking of a post. you can say whatever you like, you get the last say

people can read and make their own judgements. it's a sad day in poker if people really decide to hate all video instructors/training site affiliated people (that's a lot of people..) as they need to find someone to blame for poker getting tougher though..

here, ill donate some money to http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth...blems_fishing/ if i post again itt

i don't hold anything of this personally. as i said i understand why you have the position you do. maybe we will have a civil discussion about something else in the future. until then ciao m8

the reason you are responding to me in NVG is the same reason you slept updating your backer on your 10PLO stake

i did not read thread, but mostly they did it because of ego. I can't begin to tell you how cool these losers thought they were in 2009 wearing a card runners patch at the rio

Confirmed. Did some coaching/vids in 2009 & it primarily appealed to my ego.

^^^
THIS

Strong regulars who made money from 2004 until now are very few.
Most off them backed out years ago and moved on to the next business.
For me the real reason online poker is not fun anymore(hard to beat)are HM/PT not the trainingsites.
And why people made those video's? A few did it as a (hobby)business many others for ego purposes not sure somebody ever did it to give back to the community i doubt that highly.

The bolded is true. But nobody is in this thread saying bitching about it is actually changes anything, we're just discussing the question posted. You defending the training sites isn't helping the games either but you're still doing it.

if someone is great at dfs alienating themselves from dfs nerds means nothing

Your thought process is dumb. Its like saying that people should horde math and not teach it, then they can get paid more because they are part of a small group who know math.

gahhhhhhhhhh whyyyyyyyyyyy. how do people like you exist?