I tried playing for a living back in 2005-2006 and found I can't keep a structured life. I need to get out of the house every day and go somewhere and I quickly stopped doing that and fall into a lazy depressed cycle which becomes hard to break. Way to many distractions around my house. I like having a 2 week paycheck to always rely on and I can still play big limits and make good extra $ playing poker. The job I have now really works out for me as it's a seasonal job with good pay, 3 weeks of holidays for the busy June-October months but in the offseason November-May I get a volunteer layoff and/or as much time off as I want. Basically it's optional work. So usually sick of working full time at the end of November and by May I'm sick of laying around and am ready for work again. Now poker is a hobby and for fun and not looked at as a job. To sit and play poker because you have to instead of wanting to takes all the fun out of it and it becomes a "job". I get distracted at home and unmotivated I just can't work from home. Everyone is different but I get a feeling MOST people who play poker for a living hit this road and change their ways and go back to it as a hobby. For those of you who do it and love it good on you because deep down I wish it could work for me but doingi t full time is definetely not my thing and I found that by actually doing it.

Again having a job that is basically optional work is also great! I definetely can't work 5 days a week and get sick of it quick but at a job where you can take a week off whenever you want or take thursday and friday off 4 weekends in a row definetely helps

Hmmm, so you play a game, you got 1500$ in 30 hours.
If you're not winning then what are you doing ? Because you're sure as **** not loosing.

It seems to me that you EARN rakeback money for playing the game; you are paid a certain amount of money per hand, independent of the outcome of the hands. It's sort of like getting paid a salary to play poker.

WINNING money at poker, on the other hand, is about winning pots at poker, either by playing better or getting luckier than your opponent. It is separate from any rakeback payments that are received.

If one is simply trying to capture how much money one nets by playing poker, than that would be the rakeback +or- actual winnings/losses.

If you really want to determine how much someone WON playing poker, than to me that would not include rakeback.

For example, I think the HSP show pays the players around $1k/hour to be on the show. Let's say they film for 10 hours, and are paid $10k. If you were to ask one of the players, e.g. Doyle, how much did you win, I'm sure he would look at his chips, subtract his buyin, and come up with a number. I'm sure he wouldn't say "well I've lost 5k but I'm getting 10k in hourly payments so I've won 5k.

At the end of the day, he might say he "made" 5k for his effort, but not that he "won" 5k.

It's all semantics, but I see the point god is trying to make here.

Yes, it is supposed to be a rebuttal of your post. Yes, I read your entire post (and I just re-read it to make sure I didn't misinterpret anything). No, none of our points are mirroring each other.

I'll happily debate this topic further with you, but of the two of us, I am the only one who has both worked both a regular job and played poker professionally. There are a lot of poker pros who struggle with living a healthy lifestyle despite the excessive amount of free time they have. That alone should speak volumes and show that maintaining balance in one's life as a poker player is harder than it looks.

I made this thread two years ago, pretty good advise in there for people who are thinking about leaving poker

Changing paths: Experiences about leaving poker

FWIW, I'm still playing

we'll see how long this lasts lol

i bet you must feel proud of yourself after that post

Huh? Just sharing my thoughts like everyone else on an internet forum. In my life I've done a few things I'm proud of, and many I'm not so proud of, but posting on an internet forum doesn't make the cut either way.

Your thoughts were right on. The real world(typical professions) is a much tougher grind then being a poker player on average.

Most popular jobs in U.S.A in 2010...if you think being a professional poker player is tough...try doing one of these jobs at the salary provided. Replace their salary with your poker income and see if you would rather do their job with your current salary.


1. Retail salespeople
Total employment: 4,209,500

Salary: $24,630*

2. Cashiers
Total employment: 3,439,380

Salary: $19,038


3. Office clerks
Total employment: 2,815,240

Salary: $27,700


4. Combined food preparation and service workers

Total employment: 2,695,740

Salary: $18,120


5. Registered nurses

Total employment: 2,583,770

Salary: $66,530


6. Waiters and waitresses

Total employment: 2,302,070

Salary: $20,380

7. Customer service representatives

Total employment: 2,195,860

Salary: $32,410


8. Material movers

Total employment: 2,135,790

Salary: $25,290

Requirements: On-the-job training



9. Janitors

Total employment: 2,090,400

Salary: $24,120


10. Stock clerks and order fillers

Total employment: 1,864,410

Salary: $23,460


11. Secretaries

Total employment: 1,797,670

Salary: $31,060


12. Bookkeeping, accounting and auditing clerks

Total employment: 1,757,870

Salary: $34,750

13. General managers
Total employment: 1,689,680

Salary: $110,550

14. Tractor-trailer truck drivers
Total employment: 1,550,930

Salary: $39,260


15. Elementary school teachers

Total employment: 1,544,300

Salary: $53,150

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/11...-popular-jobs/

[QUOTE=SayGN;25720151]Yes, it is supposed to be a rebuttal of your post. Yes, I read your entire post (and I just re-read it to make sure I didn't misinterpret anything). No, none of our points are mirroring each other.

I'll happily debate this topic further with you, but of the two of us, I am the only one who has both worked both a regular job and played poker professionally. There are a lot of poker pros who struggle with living a healthy lifestyle despite the excessive amount of free time they have. That alone should speak volumes and show that maintaining balance in one's life as a poker player is harder than it looks.[/QUOTE]

If you cant identify the logical fallacy here....no point in discussing anything with you.

Here, Ill help...

Lots of people are black and are dumb...THAT ALONE SHOULD SPEAK VOLUMES AND SHOW SOMEHOW THE TWO ARE RELATED IN A CASUAL WAY.....(sarcasm..not teh racism)

Its going to take a lot more than rereading my posts to get you to the level of an avg. community college grad in terms of logical/critical thinking.

For every person depressed playing poker there is 100 that are depressed cuz of their 9 to 5. I am playing for a living and loving it.

I agree with this, except for the part about saying how its a part time job if you dont put in the same hours as in the real working world. I truly believe 20hrs of poker = 40hrs real world job. And I play for a living, so I have some idea of what I am talking about.

I guess it depends on what your "=" sign stands for. There's a lot of possible variations there. Multitabling 24 tables for 20 hours could be more mentally demanding than 40 hours of some other jobs. But also less than some others.

But when it comes to issues of having a "balanced life" with time to exercise, eat right, socialize, etc, then 40 hours a week, no matter what you are doing, is going mean there is only half the time available for that "other stuff" than when you are playing poker for 20 hours a week.

As to the specific example of the 1100 hour guy in two years, that's only 11 hours a week. That's really not even a part time job, no matter how you look at it, from a time availability perspective.

Interesting post, a winning player at 1/2 nl live could make more then most of those jobs. Being a GM wouldnt be a bad job, but it ussually takes 10+ years of ass kissing working for the same company to get there.

I haven't clicked the link but I would think there are way more jobs in construction fields automotive fileds that would fall under "most popular jobs in America" where are those? I guarantee there are more then 5m people working construction.

Well dunno about automotive, but construction dropped a ton the last couple years, most people who did construction are now unemployed. In vegas specifically it dropped by over 50 percent. There is a guy who works in my office who did construction all his life, was making 80-100k a couple years ago, now hes making 12-14 dollars an hour servicing fire extinguishers and is in bankruptcy. Used all his savings and retirement supporting his family when the economy tanked and he lost his job.

One good thing about poker is that its not going anywhere, the games might get harder but youll never have to worry about losing your job if your a pro.

even 6 tabling for 20hrs is more draining then 40hrs of real job. I read somewhere that most people, in an 8 hours work day, waste 2 of those hours either by chatting to co workers, playing online games etc. Not many jobs require you to have to constantly focus and make important decisions under pressure in multiple situations at one time(aka multitabling).

Not true in the long-term. I've never heard of anyone making very far just by playing poker professionally --- this is why some pros expand their horizons by pursuing business endeavours for financial security in the long-term --- assuming the business is sufficiently successful. The young kids just don't get it until they get older. I know some of them were penalized by the IRS for improperly filing their taxes. This will certainly happen to the young guns here who play poker professionally at some point.

Not even the well-known pros have any money. Most of the money is borrowed from (online) casinos. The highly privileged ones can borrow as much as they want with 0% interest --- this is why many pros can easily buy houses and stuff.

And then another thing to consider is that these pros will absolutely have no chance of getting a pension when they are in their seniors. They wouldn't even dare try.

So overall, I still think people's life is much better when they work a decent-pay job and they stay single. Unfortunately, North America is in the verge of economic failure, so...well...good luck to everyone.

First off, I've tried very hard to word my responses to you in such a way that they would not be viewed as insulting. I guess it was too much to expect the same courtesy from you.

That being said, I graduated with a 3.4 gpa from a top 25 public university. While it's not the ivy leagues, you'd do well not to attack my education or my logic, for that matter, considering that the effective application of logic is paramount to being a successful poker player (not to mention many other areas of interest for me such as trading and debating).

Your example of "lots of people are black and dumb" is piss poor even if I were to ignore the racist overtones. Seeing as you simply replaced 'poker players' with 'black people' and 'lazy' with 'dumb', I'll assume you can make your way back to your original example of unhealthiness in the 27-28yr old working crowd (hint: replace 'poker players' with 'working class' and 'lazy' with 'unhealthy'). All three examples sound arbitrary if not backed up with additional information (which we both provided in previous posts). Your original argument is just as invalid when placed into the shortsighted context in which you manipulated mine.

I also can't help but notice that you did absolutely nothing to further your point in your latest response. Your feeble and transparent effort to discredit my argument based on a platform of "if you can't see why the statement of yours that I bolded is wrong, then you're too dumb to understand my reasoning behind it" is a tactic used by people who cannot provide a response with actual substance.

In each of your responses, you've purposely insulted my intelligence and told me that something I said was stupid, but you could never be bothered to actually explain why you think you are correct. If you can say that more 27-28yr olds would be healthy if they had more time, I think it is completely fair to say that fewer poker players would be viewed as lazy if they exercised greater discipline and made more out of their free time.

The challenges faced by members of each profession might be very different, but they are no less real. It's extremely easy for someone in the workforce to say "Poker is such a great job. You should never complain about it because it's super easy compared to the real world." Yet there are a number of people in this thread alone looking to transition, or re-transition, back into the workforce after discovering that is significantly more difficult to maintain a good and balanced life with poker than anyone on the outside looking in would expect.

his graph and stats, obv.

You're right in the sense that if one bases quality of life solely on free time, there's no beating poker, considering I'm working only about 13hrs/week. Free time was the main reason why I left my job to pursue poker. I originally planned on doing all sorts of great things with the extra time that I had, but I have found that my motivation comes in spurts and that I was actually far more productive with my free time when I had less of it.

That is absolutely a character flaw on my part, but it is one shared by many professional players. My whole argument with that other dude in this thread is based off the premise that, since I seem to be among the majority of players who are lazy in this sense, there are influencing factors being overlooked by everyone in this thread. A truly motivated and driven person may not falter in this vein like I have, but seeing as I am less productive than I used to be despite this free time (and this is not uncommon amongst others in my field) there is validity to the argument that poker as a profession is not all it's cracked up to be.

Let's face it. If poker is such a great life, what prevents you, personally, from going pro in poker? Are you not smart enough? Not good enough? Not disciplined enough? It seems like all of those things are variables that you can overcome with enough effort. Maybe you just don't love the game enough (news flash: many of us who play professionally have grown to despise it). Perhaps your decision not to play professionally is based off the fact that you have a family to provide for. It would be a lot of stress not knowing if you could consistently put food on the table, not knowing if you will even be able to play online next year due to legislation. What would you do then? Who would want to start a family with you if your partner could not be sure about your ability to provide (my choice to play poker cost me a 3year relationship with the best person I've ever known, someone I wanted a life and family with...that's gone because I chose to continue playing cards for the time being). There are a lot of good things about poker, but anybody who has not done it as a primary means of income could not possibly understand the difficulties faced by those who have. There are many things that make it a sub optimal way to make a living. The free time is great, but it still comes at a price.

this is a VERY good post.. also in theireye one day you'll grow up and realize how much this guy owned you in this thread.

13/hours a week...you must be doing pretty well. On that note, your complaints have nothing to do with playing poker for a living. They have everything to do with the effects of a laidback, nothing to motivate you lifestyle. That is your lifestyle choice. The game doesn't do this to you...you allow your lack responsibilities to dictate what you do.

Your lack of motivation is your fault. Shifting the blame on poker is only justifying your laziness to yourself.

Sry...I couldn't disagree with you more...I support a family on poker and have worked in the real world for quite a few years.

What exactly is the price you pay for your free time?

One last thing, if I was making enough in 13 hours per week; I would be working 80 hours per week. Why would you not? You could retire in a year...then do whatever makes you happy if you don't enjoy being a professional poker player.

I applaud you for playing full time and supporting your family. I also applaud your wife/partner for standing by you while you do this considering there is a lot of uncertainty involved and the welfare of your family is at risk.

I wish you had bolded the part of my post where I said that it was my own character flaws that prevent me from being more productive with my spare time because I could not agree with you more regarding my own short comings. What I am saying is that my shortcomings are shared by many many other poker pros, so there must be some reason behind this 'phenomenon.'

In reference to why I don't play 40+ hours/week...I play sngs - about 1,500 hands per hour, and after roughly 70,000 tournaments in the past 24 months, I am miserable every second that I'm playing. I also do not make a ton of money from poker, so I do not want to give that impression. I live very frugally and can afford to do the things I want to do despite making about $800/week on average. Obligation is a fantastic motivator, and I would play more if I had someone depending on me...but it's just me. I make enough to live comfortably and put away some savings doing something I really do not enjoy in the slightest. I also know that I felt less mentally exhausted after working 8hrs at one of my previous jobs than I do after playing for 4hrs in a day. I suppose that makes sense considering I probably make 10x more decisions in a few hours than the average person makes in a day.

cool man... I wasn't trying to put you down. I think most pro poker players are drawn to poker because they have similar characteristics...personalities; similar to a lot of professions.

I am very similar to you. My family is my motivation for sure. Without them, I would probably be in same boat as yourself.

I definitely feel the poker player lifestyle magnifies the character flaws that a lot of us share. I would compare it to a recovering alcoholic hanging out in bars. Doesn't cause the problems, but makes them more likely to happen.

Hope you didn't take it personally. I was trying to make the distinction that poker doesn't cause them...that they already existed.

Also, I would never put my family at risk. Bankroll nit itt plus I am always prepared to enter the working world..and keep bill money seperate...and thx for the applause; family is secure.