+1 might seem trivial but in late stages this is critical to short stack players

Sounds great, but are you familiar with the term Cold Deck?

Currently debating on Twitter this new phenomenon of pulling chips out the pot before raising, calling, or even folding. I think taking chips out of the pot (specifically the entire amount) should be stopped immediately.

Didn't know a player could ever take a chip out of pot or ever even really touch pot except to maybe move it around it a little to count. Even that I don't like.

To be fair he isn't talking about reaching into the central pot (which I have never seen) but instead removing chips in blinds or bets that are still in front of you but technically in the pot. Everyone has seen for example someone bet 500, guy raises to 1300, then the other player pulls back the 500 chip and throw in 3100 or whatever.

Dealers should remember what the initial bet is IMO.

Not allowing this prevents players from playing silently if they want to. Could be a problem if a player is deaf/mute.

The ongoing debate about pulling back chips is this:
If a player pulls back previously wagered chips, does that bind him to at least a call?

Example of why this is being discussed goes like this:
Player A makes a bet of 5000.
Player B raises to 12,000.
Player A takes his 5000 back, thinks for a minute, then places his 5000 back into the pot and folds.

Should Player A have been bound to at least calling the 12,000 as soon as he manipulated his previously wagered chips? Is touching those chips a binding action in this context? If so, how do we word this in a way that would not create more confusion and possibly cause other issues to arise.

i have never seen a person touch the chips and then fold. i agree that it seems very awkward and wrong for that to happen, but can't express why it offends me, but them pulling the 5k back, thinking and putting out 23,000 doesn't.

Blinds are part of the pot. If a player bets, then gets raised, his initial bet is part of the pot.

Is this actually a problem? i've never seen anyone pull back chips, put them back in, and then fold. I guess it must have happened once or twice, but I don't see why is it worth instituting a rule about.

seems like a nonissue

Yes, it is a recent issue I have seen a few times recently.

I actually got called to a table where action was on a player who had no chips in front of him had taken a bet back and asked what are my options?

I still don't see what the issue is....just tell him he can put his orginal bet back in and fold if he wants. It seems like anyone trying to make an issue out of this is just being a jerk.

My issue is taking chips out of the pot. I firmly believe that this should not be done and that mistakes and worse that angles may happen because of this.

Chips that are bet into the pot should stay in the pot IMO.

Don't let the dealer push happen within one minute of the level change. It gets confusing with the blind level and people want dealers to "press the button" on the shuffle machine before the blinds go up.

Just exactly this. As I've commented about the "single chip call" habit, this is an opening play in a bunch of different angles. Quite simply, how do we know how many chips he had out there in the first place? People get all upset when dealers announce the size of bets or raises, so dealers are not inclined to pay close attention to the bet size until asked. If a player pulls his chips back, is that a forced raise? And oh by the way, what's the minimum forced raise, because we don't know the original bet size.

If the player has an option to fold, then we can't be sure that the same number of chips came back out as he pulled in (and I promise you many people could make chips disappear from that stack in ways you'd never see them).

The only reason I can think of that people do this is to simplify the amount that they want to bet. That is, they have a bet of 750 out, it gets raised to 2000. They want to reraise to 5500 and rather than do the math, they just pull back the 750 and slide out 5500.

Or, you could just say "5500".

Nobody wants to add more rules to the book (at least I'm pretty sure that Matt and I don't). But when players start doing something that could cause confusion or facilitate angles, you have to make changes to protect the game.

Regards, Lee

The bet size should be known by the dealer.

When the floor is called about a player taking a chip or chips out they ask the dealer how much was out there. Whatever the dealer says will be the amount the player will be compelled to place back in.

I actually really wish dealers would announce the size of a raise immediately without being asked. It gets asked almost 100% even if the player isn't considering calling.

Chips get taken out of the pot to make change. Taking a chip and putting other chips in is just making change by yourself.

I would support dealers always announcing bet sizes and think it should be mandatory if the bet size doesn't match the chips. So annoying when someone puts out a 1k chip, mumbles 350 so that the two players by them can hear and the dealer doesn't clarify or announce.

I would like to see it become STANDARD procedure to provide details on payout structures (along with structure sheets) well prior to tourney start date.

Doesn't always happen

It has always been my position that dealers should announce a bet that has been announced by a player. At that point, it's known information, so what's the difference?

Agree, but try training dealers to remember that rule and you will have mistakes all the time I promise you.

Thanks Lee, I'm glad you and I see see eye to eye on this and hope you can make it to the Aria for the TDA Summit.

replace dealers with parrots

problem solved

New Rule: One Chip Behind

"A player who has moved all of his chips into the pot, except one chip, shall be considered All-In if the one chip behind is less than a Big Blind."

This rule would solve a few problems. First, it's not uncommon for a newer / recreational player to move their chips All-In, but leave one chip behind, usually their card protector. Currently, that player is not All-In, but other players and newer dealers might assume that player is All-In. Then you might have Player B say Call, and expose their hand prematurely. In some of the Vegas rooms, this would be an automatic 1-Round penalty for Player B because someone had a 25 chip as a card protector.

Also, having the clause "is less than a Big Blind" would prevent someone from trying to angle shoot this rule with a 5K chip.