Interesting, I will add it to the list but some people actually like to see one more card before the river but it may also stop a collusion situation. In the end I am not sure how much it helps but happy to raise it, thank you.

Over here in the UK the dealers always announce all bets and raises - both that they have occurred and the size. That is the standard here.

I have dealt at a PokerStars UKIPT event where the organisers instructed us to not announce the bet/raise sizes, but simply announce raise/bet/all in when that is the action and wait til someone asks what the size is.

Their reasoning was that by announcing the size we would be influencing the play of the hand too much (ie it should be the responsibility/skill element of the player to identify chips and stack sizes) and that it speeds up the game not counting chips all the time.

I didn't notice any difference, except to say that a lot of players kept distracting me asking me why I wouldn't announce the bet and raise sizes because that is what they expect.

I don't get why the standard training in America contains something other than the announcement of all bets and raises and their size; your comment seems to imply that is the standard over there?

This training really does inhibit the player who is not entirely able bodied, either with sight issues or who is hard of hearing, more so than training otherwise. If all bets and raises are announced and their size, all players benefit!

What happens if the dealer announces the wrong amount, is the other player held to the bet?

Because the amount announced can influence action as you had previously stated. I feel like a lot of people on this forum assume that everyone is as smart as them and make assumptions that simply aren't the case. There are tons of times in a, live tournament especially, where I can minraise and if the dealer simply says raise people fold without thinking, but if the dealer says "1000; 500 more to you" I get called in a lot more spots because people realize it's only a minraise. The reason dealers announce the amounts prematurely is usually related to cash games and wanting to get more hands out to earn more tips, doesn't mean it's the correct method. A good dealer will know within a chip how much the bet is by watching how you cut it out so as soon as someone asks how much it is they can give an amount while breaking it down.

Yes. I believe you have stated it multiple times as well.

This is why the old rule was changed

One of my pet peeves is announcer dealers who feel its necessary to state the amount of every bet and raise as it happens.

This tends to influence action.

Invariably they eventually announce a bet wrong and get testy when you correct them.

All dealers should just announce bet or raise and specify the amount only when asked.

That should be the standard.

I would be willing to wager a moderately large amount of money that in a huge majority (let's say, setting our line at 90%) of hands dealt that the dealer announces the exact size of the raise and gets it correct.



Regards, Lee

AFAIK over this side of the pond it is not the correct procedure to say to a player how much more unless asked. Even then, when a player asks how much more, I've heard dealers persist with saying what the total amount is and trying to avoid saying how much more! I've done it myself, like so:


"Raise to 7000 total"
"How much more?"
"It's 7000 total."
"Yeah but how much more?"
*grins* "I don't know but I do know it's 7000 total."

I think that's the best way for a dealer to respond, because the mathematics of what the increment of the raise is should be the responsibility of the player. Even hard of hearing or of sight, mathematics can be done by the player.

But anyway the whole point of raising the issue of announcing bets/raises came up in the thread because failing to do it was the primary cause of the issue found in a player taking a chip out of the pot to make a new action.

Does the veracity of the dealer's announcement somehow vary according to whether they announce the bet size as soon as it's made or when asked?

I doubt it.

Yes they usually get it correct. But say the opener made it 500 and raiser makes it 1100. Just saying 1100 affects future action. Its completely different than saying raise.

The times they announce the wrong amount, problems ensue.



Thats why i prefer the dealer just to say raise or call.

+1 to all of this. Trying to keep it simple is the way to go if there's a choice.

they could announce the wrong amount when asked anyway, don't see how this is much different and it would definitely speed things up

sorry live players want to take advantage of people not paying attention by min raising and getting folds, i'm not interested in defending their angleshooting

lol at saying it influences action as a reason against it, so what even if true? if it was standard to announce sizes then i could argue not saying it influences action

it would be easy, say raise to 1000 or whatever, the 500 part more part is unnecessary

lucius seems right and the live players trying to keep their psychological angle shooting alive are wrong

make it easier and faster, pretty simple

if someone bets 3000 or whatever am i legally by the rules allowed to ask how much he bet if i'm a) not in the hand, b) in the hand but not next to act

I've often wished that dealers would, as soon as a player raised with action only going back to one other player, would immediately sweep the initial bet amounts into the central pot leaving only the raised amount in front of the raiser. This may help mitigate players from pulling back original bets when facing a raise. Often times players themselves will ask dealer to sweep initial bets into pot leaving raise amount separate to better see pot amount/odds etc.

Bottom line, more active dealership that sweeps initial bets into pot and leaves raise amounts out front would solve much of this problem.

This argument is so silly imho. You could argue it tends to influence action when they DON'T announce bet amounts.

When you go to a store and ask how much something costs, the clerk doesn't say "it costs money". You are told exactly how much it will cost to transact. Poker should be no different.

Live poker shouldn't degenerate into who has the best eyesight to size up a stack of chips, often times horrendously colored so as difficult to distinguish, from across the table.

While poker in general is a game of imperfect information, a players bet and raise amounts should be Perfect Information to all participants at the table.

I have no problem with dealers announcing amounts of bets and raises. Frankly it just speeds up the game and eliminates hearing "How much is it?" like 30 times an hour.

Consensus appears to be that checking the nuts last to act on the river shouldn't be a penalty.

Often a beginning player misread his hand and shouldn't be penalized further.

Other scenarios where the nuts are on the board and last player is penalized.

Or a player simply checks behind because he is sure his opponent won't call but wants to see their cards at showdown.

Almost never does the check behind with the nuts occur as soft play.

I have witnessed twice in the past month, in a huge raised pot, the player who is not supposed to act, shove. My example is a player raised late position and a player in the blinds 3-bet. The original raiser called. On the flop, the player in late position just shoved. The dealer explained perfectly that if the 3-bettor checks, the other player is all in. If he bets any other amount the action is changed. It completely screwed up the hand. The player had 3-bet with 10s and was continuing 100% on the Q 7 3 flop. Now this guy has shoved without the other guy deciding how he wants to play the hand. I think there needs to be a more severe action for this. In addition to the current options, I think the player should have the option to take the pot down and the player who made the mistake has to forfeit what is in the middle. Any other suggestions welcome..

Seems a bit harsh

I don't understand how the out of position bettor gains any sort of advantage given the rule as it is now. I do thnk out of position actions like this should result in a penalty in a multi-way pot, since they can unfairly influence the action among the remaining players. But suggesting that someone should automatically forfeit the pot if they act out of turn is absurd.

I don't have a lot of complaints about tourney rules, but I guess I'd like to see a reduction in the amount of deceptive language, especially words meant as angle shots. Like "you got it" is not a fold. "Take it" is not a fold. Say something like that and maybe your opponent flips over his cards believing the hand is over. Then what? Angler raises. Angled one folds and then gets penalized for exposing his hand early...is that the rule? If it is, I'd be fine with some changes.

+1

- it seems weird that this rule exists when it is ok (and binding as a valid move when it happens accidentally) for someone to fold when they can check (particularly in the BB) which seems to be another instance of someone playing against their interests.

We will discuss this but the rule we have in place

3: Official Terminology of Tournament Poker
Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable,
time honored declarations like: bet, raise, call,
fold, check, all-in, pot (in pot limit only), and
complete. Regional terms may also meet this
standard. The use of non-standard language is at
player’s risk because it may result in a ruling
other than what the player intended. It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions clear. See also Rules 40 & 49.

The problem is we need to teach player the statements you have said are not folds and in some circumstances its the other player trying to angle by telling the floor "you got it" is a fold.

Checking the nuts is not an automatic penalty for me and never has been but I like to error on the side of informing the player that it can be seen as soft play. I have also penalized players for this when soft play seems obvious.

Folding to no bet is an etiquette violation and may be penalized at TD's discretion.