I disagree. The 'include' could easily refer to the extra hands played rather than a second offence. Just add a couple more words to see what I mean:

Also ......

Well, very early in the thread people also wrote "you guys actually believe this? lol what a bunch of donks..........." he can't be Portuguese and speak English so well, Europeans don’t dream about houses in Hawaii, he can't have trialled for Sporting de Portugal, and he's obviously not good enough to win for himself.

He didn't defend himself against any of those allegations either. Maybe he feels the thread is so full of sceptics there's no point in responding to people who have never believed anything he has written anyway. "You have the right to remain silent" and all that - which shouldn't be taken as evidence of guilt.

In the end, I think the only people who could bring this thread to a satisfactory conclusion are Lock Poker. Only they can confirm whether the 'including' in their press statement was short for 'including a second computer' or 'including other violations'. Only they have all the hand histories ever played on Girah's account to confirm how many hands, on how many occasions and from how many other locations were played by someone other than Girah. They are the people you need to bully for more information.

But one last question. If Lock confirmed there was only ever one 'second player', that that was the sole violation, and the number of illegal hands matched the number of hands already given by Girah would that be the end of the story - or do people still believe the chip dumping theory? Are there any other charges?

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one I think. If the wording were instead something like, "he was found to have violated the Merge network gaming rules after it was discovered that a second computer logged in and played on his account", then in this case the plural term 'rules' would be ambiguous and most people would interpret it as one violation, and that would be reasonable. But there's no question here imo: "violations including" implies more than one violation. There's always the possibility of a language error however - they did say "discovered with Girah account" after all...

I was dubious initially due to the quality of his English, indeed that was the whole point of the MarcoAntonio gimmick lol, but after a) Haseeb said he proof-read it and b) I saw an interview with Jose I dismissed it immediately, and even defended him against people who were still criticising the English thing. His English is awesome, and so is his intelligence in general for someone of that age - I have nothing but admiration for him in this regard. Anyway, enough about that - there is, I'm sure you'll agree, a huuuuuge difference between criticisms relating to dream holiday resorts or breadth of vocabulary, and allegations of misconduct after misconduct was discovered and subsequently punished. You cannot place these on the same level, one is serious, and has basis in fact (misconduct discovered!) and the other entirely frivolous and, for the most part, imagined.

I will say this however. Speculations and accusations of levelling / fraud etc. have been rife since the very start of this whole saga, well before anybody even knew anything about it. Is that just because NVG is full of haters...? Why is it you don't see this kind of thing taking place at such a scale with threads following other rising stars when they arrive on the scene (Isildur, XWINK etc.)? The reason is because from the very start, so much information has been kept hidden, is still kept hidden - and more and more holes have appeared which don't fit the official narrative. I categorically assure you that if everything had been transparent from the outset (e.g. screennames posted), this thread would not have developed as it did. When more and more things don't make sense, people speculate.

I'll reiterate that you cannot place "allegations" of high quality English and holiday resorts on the same level of seriousness as misconduct (some of which has been proven by the site he plays on). "What's that? Someone doesn't believe I'd like to live in Hawaii?? F******s, I'll show them!!" is not particularly plausible. If someone accuses you of cheating, that's a condemnation of your character, your reputation, your perceived identity as an honest human being. I simply cannot believe that anybody would think there's no point in responding in such circumstances. And you're making it seem like he's got nothing to prove to us NVGtards - I agree, I totally agree with this 100%. That's not the point! This is a public thread that anybody can read, anybody who googles his name will find this thread at the top of the results. This is not about proving anything to NVGtards, it's about setting the record straight about his reputation for the rest of his life - if he can prove his innocence, all of this will be over, and we can just go back to watching him prodigy sh*t up like a boss


Actually, Lock are only part of the story. I fully believe that Jose is the player who has played the vast majority of hands since his sponsorship. Jose is the one who has the full hand histories - in particular the interesting ones relating to the phenomenal winrates posted in the OP.


Lock is just the recent stuff since May - what I really want to know is if Jose was the only player who played on all his previous accounts (we still have no idea what those are for some reason) - the ones that produced the original HEM screenshot. Chipdumping is not an issue imo - ghosting is.

Anyway, thanks for this post. It's nice to read a reasonable, logical and well-written one (even if I disagree with a lot of it lol). You can come round my house and *** my sister any day.

He doesn't want to disclose the accounts because he played underage on them and didn't pay tax on the money either so the story is he doesn't want to give up that info for free because it'll come back to cost him in the real world.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/92...tugal-1025113/

"Is poker taxed there? " (Portugal)

"no taxes from poker or online gambling like sports betting."

I think Jose said at one point that he will reveal his screennames at some point. So not sure what the actual issue is - what trouble would he get into for revealing screennames if they showed he played underage? Loads of HS players have admitted this haven't they? Genuine question btw, I don't know what kind of problems this could cause.

he doesnt wanna disclose SNs because portugal authorities will **** him up for playing underage and try and confiscate winnings, its a jungle right now in portugal with this ****ty economy. if they know his real name they cant do **** because they have no real proof he actualy won the money, but if they have account names, they can ask sites for names and connect them.

its common knowlege tho that he is http://www.pokertableratings.com/ipo...search/oovoo99 and
http://www.pokertableratings.com/par...h/aggressive22 and http://www.pokertableratings.com/ong...earch/eduduplo . or at least its what the guys in the other thread said, i personaly only know about oovoo99.

How is "includes" unambiguous in this context. You've already listed 3 different things it could refer to?

I can assure that I am not the one looking terrible in this thread.

As for my relationship with Girah and other people involved, I had never heard of Girah or Jose Macedo before this thread. I have never had any contact, not even via PM, with Haseeb, sauce or jungleman. This will be my only response on this matter and I refuse to answer any more questions about this, which I realize is proof that I am ghosting the Girah account.

Depends on who your asking, I can assure you it's a coin flip at best!

Couldn't help but notice he didnt say it didn't happen just there is 0 PROOF.

Hang on. You're the second person claiming that it's "known" - in fact you're saying it's "common knowledge" that one of Jose's former accounts is aggressive22 on party poker. You said you know Jose and speak to him - are you actually saying aggressive22 on party poker is one of his previous acounts? Has Jose said this to you?

Because someone said yesterday that he knows aggressive22, that it's some Dutch guy who's playing in some live event apparently (can't remember exactly, it's been deleted since). This resulted in me asking to have my post deleted, a post which showed that there's roughly 0% chance that aggressive22 on party and girahh on merge are the same person as their playing styles are vastly different. I felt terrible that I had brought aggressive22 into this thread.

Has Jose confirmed to you (as opposed to it being 'common knowledge') that aggressive22 was one of his accounts? If it wasn't one of his accounts, then people need to stop associating them as it's not fair on the actual account holder. If it was... then well... Jose, you got some 'splainin to do!

Dude... that's the second time you've used semantic sleight of hand to deflect a point I've made now... when I said that the word "includes" is unambiguous, I was referring to the fact that it implies multiple violations. The ambiguity of what violations the word "includes" refers to has nothing to do with my point....

To quote the great Milli Vanilli "Girl you know it's true"

Time to give back the grammy Jose.

from my recollections aggressive22 was dutchmaniak on ftp

(and from what i heard ingsoni wasnt isildur either, funny how people find the biggest hu winner and auto-assign it )

Ok, so oovoo99 is definitely one of Jose's old accounts?

oovoo99 played pretty much nothing but HU on ipoker in August 2010. only 15k hands, but from that he won $355k which is a 20bb/100 winrate.

the vast majority of Jose's hands on the girahh account on Merge are 6-max. so it's not really right to compare PTR stats between those 2 accounts. however, since this is all we've got to go on, let's have a look.

oovoo99's 'loose' and 'aggressive' HU PTR stats on ipoker

25/50 HU (10,896 hands)
80% loose
7% aggressive

25/50euro HU (1,104 hands)
80% loose
7% aggressive

50/100 HU (861 hands)
97% loose
25% aggressive

girahh's 'loose' and 'aggressive' HU PTR stats on merge

25/50 HU (211 hands)
50% loose
6% aggressive

5/10 HU (2,151 hands)
24% loose
28% aggressive

3/6 HU (452 hands)
29% loose
11% aggressive

10/20 HU (204 hands)
48% loose
5% aggressive

Overall weighted averages:

oovoo99: 12896 hands: 81% loose, 8% aggressive (won $254,744 from these 13k hands)
girahh: 3018 hands: 28% loose, 22% aggressive (lost $859 from these 3k hands)

As I said, these are very small samples. But the difference in looseness between them is pretty huge. It's especially interesting that of the 3018 HU hands that girahh has played, his average vpip is 28%, which is pretty much exactly the same as his average 6-max vpip. Having such a low vpip HU is strange isn't it? I'm primarily a 6-max player, a nitty one at that (around 18% vpip on average lol), but when I play HU my vpip is around 60. I'd imagine most people would call that nitty for HU.

Anyway, as you can see I'm not accusing anybody of anything untoward here. I'm just following gregorio's suggestion to do some stats comparisons and this is pretty interesting, at least intrinsically. Sadly it's the bare minimum since there's not exactly much data to go on, and even what does exist is tiny in sample size terms! And as before, if it turns out that oovoo99 is not actually one of Jose's old accounts, then this post is meaningless and should be deleted.

Damn you're good pro, keep it up.

This thread really needs some cliffs now.

I agree with you that there are a lot of wild allegations itt but you are picking on the wrong ones (i.e. those posts which do refer to real evidence and raise questions rather than declaring anyone guilty). Also, the fact that you see one thing which you don't agree with doesn't mean that all the other points itt are invalid. Wouldn't it be better just to call out the unfair posts and let the more reasonable ones stand? There are some serious issues raised here which deserve an airing.

But people have presented evidence. The fact that girah offered $20k from Jungleman's FTP account in return for $20k in girah's Party account and that girah said 'PM Jungleman' with offers:

(1) suggests a significant financial relationship between them; and

(2) raises the question why girah was swapping funds in this way if he had a backer other than Jungleman (one would assume the backer would provide the funds and/or swap them).

This isn't conclusive proof (or anywhere near) that Jungleman was the backer but it is a valid piece of circumstantial evidence, not just speculation. It's very possible that Jungleman was not the backer (and either of them could easily clear this up by telling us). imo its not unreasonable for people to point to these posts girah made in the past as potentially relevant to the debate.

Many readers will ignore random posts by the 2 or 3 guys who keep trying to defend girah with multiple posts itt using any argument they can find. However, people take your posts more seriously as you are a mod so it would be helpful if you took a balanced approach.

Cliffs:

1) Portuguese dude decides to tell his story on 2+2 - MISTAKE!
2) gets into trouble
3) does not bother to defend himself properly
4) ****-storm ensues, internet detectives go wild
5) to be continued until 2013
6) popcorn?

Hundreds of pages of 'Rangey McTripleMerge' and others using the same lines but in longer and longer posts. They could have made their (tenuous) points in one post and left it at that unless they had anything (anything) of value to add later, which they clearly didn't.

tl;dr

That's not true, Rangey has made some valid points and pulled up some stats and his observations on them. If any player that has had allegations made against them and worried about their rep, don't you think they'd have told josé to clear things up for free to save their name being dragged through the mud?

Rangey McTriplemerge and others are not even close to having enough credibility to drag anybody's name through the mud. I think the guys got lost in the pecking order somewhere.

Aggressive22 is indeed dutckmaniak/tuffshark, and he has had a new name on Party for quite a while now, not too hard to find out.

Ingsoni was a Martonas account, but Isildur played on it a few times (from the horse's mouth).

pwned. Worse is that it was pretty damn obvious that this is what you meant.

well that's just, like, your opinion man...

Some would say that credibility (or lack of it) in this context is to be found within the content of information provided, rather than the character of the messenger. I'll admit I'm a microdonk, I can beat 50nl but that's just because I pretty much only look to play pots with the megafish and generally run like a screaming little girl if any reg raises my cbet. I'm also a degen who can't resist blowing away hundreds (sometimes thousands) on the roulette table when I tilt. And I know that I make a lot of silly posts on here in an attempt to be funny, and at best I probably have a roughly 50/50 split of success and failure in this regard. I've also indulged in a frankly terrifying quantity of 'party chemicals' back in the day. I also take sneak peeks at girls' boobs when they're not looking. I'm no Jesus Christ Poker Legend Forensic Scientist, I'll admit that. But do you notice a pattern with all these things about me... that's right! They're completely irrelevant.

If some drunk dude with tourette's syndrome attends a flat earth society meeting and among a bunch of curse words you hear him say, "your evidence doesn't make sense, there's good reason to believe the earth is actually an oblate spheroid", do you dismiss his point? You may have no respect for the guy, but you have to admit he's making a reasonable point

I was about to post that they're simply deflection tactics however that really does sound like the talk of a conspiracy theorist, so I'll just infer it instead.

Interesting how the case is being made with facts/arguments/questions and the responses are often composed of insults/semantic nitpicking/misdirection etc.