I like to think that you could program two exploitive bots and pit them against each other until they both reach GTO, thus revealing the GTO solution

some universities have poker bot competitions. they don't often play gto. they're simply reacting to each others strategies in their own predefined ways.

I guess it's the 'own predefined ways' part that is the problem then. Well it's not really a problem they built them for a competition not to find GTO.

No.

all human players are doing it by playing the game

computers would figure it out way more faster though

That NLHE bot is a ****ing sunrunner

This sort of works; in fact you need to slightly modify this approach in order to avoid getting into infinite loops. Google "fictitious play".

Of course, for something like HUNL you need a loooot of time and memory.

fwiw, theory terminology: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...ology-1180391/

Also, a brief explanation of Game Theory by Bryce Paradis:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/94...holdem-245479/

What are the chances that the opening betting in GTO Hu NL is different from what humans have accomplished? For example a lot of players are minraising, so does that mean GTO is closer to minraising or is there a nonzero % chance that GTO could be 4x'ing the button? Can one definitely state that a certain range of opening bets are NOT possible for GTO?

The right way to beat a mediocre player is to play as close to GTO as possible except in those situations where it is clear that you shouldn't. Essentially combinining the two types above.

Even though I am not a head up player simple logic tells me that an excellent human will likely beat a semifish for more than a bot would. For example say that you noticed that your opponent is folding 30% of his buttons. A bot would not adjust for this and call too often preflop. It would also play a bit too loose from that point forward. It would give up EV to the semi fish because its strategy has to at least break even against a player that raises 100% of the time preflop. Which is a looser strategy than the proper one for this situation. Of course the EV it gives back to thne semifish is no more than the original gift it was handed by the extra preflop folding. But an expert human, unlike the bot, would not return nearly as much of that gift

Sure. In time you will see more work being published in this area, or simply witness such a bot playing.

In LH there was a bot called something like "Sonia" that played only exploitively after a small number of hands;I do not remember, perhaps as few as 20. Sonya beat many pros in heads up, and simulated ring. There used to be a site where the public could play Sonya but I can no longer find it.

Here is a link to a 2plus article about a yearly bot vs bot competition in LH: Vol 8. No. 8 By Phil Newall

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...ompetition.php

This is an interesting discussion, mainly because I remember (a few years ago), some of the prominent posters in these forums debating the value of min-raising preflop in HUNL. I wish I could find the thread. Throughout it, a lot of the posters who were opposing the idea, and calling it -EV, were slowly starting to realize that their assessments were wrong, etc...

Those types of discussions are obviously possible moving forward... where we realize how wrong the standard actions are in certain spots. For all we know, humans are a million realizations away from reaching GTO. It'd be interesting to see a GTO bot in play, so we can all sit here and analyze it's plays and see how wrong we were, and see all of the realizations we've missed out on up to this point.

Ok, this thread is long and I can't read it all coz it's in english and it will take me hours... So I just to make sure someone will give the following explanation:

The GTO strategy of HU 5cd will be a loose caller against pats. I can guaranty your pat hands (straights, flushes, boats and SF) will make you a nice profit.

WHY?

Because A) GTO will be indifferent to your appeared strategy (i.e. won't change the way it plays no matter what you do) and B) you can play a strategy that stands pat 100% of the time, such as call pre-pat-bet OOP/raise IP (for example). So GTO, in order not to be exploited by such strategy, will call with a surprising % of hands.

The thing is, that once you know GTO's calling vs pat percentages, you will indeed be able to exploit them, but not without GTO EXPLOITING YOU BACK AGAINST THE REST OF YOUR HANDS. It will call you down quite loosely, allowing you to make a profit standing pat, say, 90% of the hands (we already said it have to call enough to at least break even vs 100% pat). but the profit won't be high enough to cover on the loses from the remaining 10%.
To put it more simply- if you'll stand pat a large % of the time for value with your good hands, GTO will crush you because your remaining ranges will be crappy and will fold/lose at showdown way more often than not. If you will add a lot of bluffs you will find out you don't enough fold equity to make it profitable, not even if you will pat all your hands.

And, as mentioned before, it will be insanely hard to find the GTO strategy, but it been proved to exist for every 2 players game.

p.s.
Poker is a complete information game, money wise. Every player is familiar with all the possible strategies and payoffs of his opponents and himself, so he's able to figure his best response in any given situation.

Here is a simple example which illustrates a few important points regarding GTO play.

My Example: Suppose we are playing "Rock, Paper, Scissor".

• My strategy is to randomize rock, paper, and scissor (this is GTO plan).
• Your strategy is to randomly select rock and paper.

We play 1,000,000 games and bet $5 on each game. What is my EV?


Next question: Suppose I knew your plan was to randomize rock and paper. How should I play against you?


Conclusions:

to the people saying durrr would get crushed, would you guys expect Hoss_TBF (or any top HULHE player) to beat this slumbot?

Grunch. GTO's point is to achieve an equilibrium such that no matter what your opponent does, he can not exploit you by changing strategies. Ergo, you've made your opponent indifferent towards any choice of actions he may possibly take against you. It's not exactly the same as "minimizing the maximum loss possible", since not every game is about minimizing the maximum loss, though in practice it often is.

no. i mean, i guess its possible since its still imperfect enough that perfect counter strategy is slightly profitable, but it would be pretty hard for a human to be able to come up with and execute that strategy without a ridiculous amount of time/work/information i'd think. i don't really know **** about it though.

If you took the time to consider this example, please consider the following.

First we don't know the GTO solution to poker. But if we did find this GTO solution, why is everyone assuming it would play +EV against any random strategy or even most strategies?!

The example above illustrates that GTO is only guaranted to be un-exploitable, not profitable.

So for example, a GTO bot might only be break-even against someone who goes all-in every time the action comes to him or her! And GTO bot might only be break-even against someone who min-raises every time the action comes to them!

Until we know the GTO strategy we can't be sure it is +EV against most strategies!

Against a true GTO bot Durrr could possibly (probably!?) click it back every time the action comes to his and break-even (excluding rake)!

Important point: Current bots might be hugely +EV against regs, but the current bots are not playing GTO. So slumbot might crush me and everyone in this thread, but that would be due to the AI effectively us.

My guess would be that there are multiple GTO strategies to NL involving different sizings specifically

This. Also seems likely that some percentage of btn limping is part of a GTO strategy.

If a bot is playing HUNL and trying to play GTO why wouldnt it just push/fold pre ? Correct me if i'm wrong but GTO just means playing unexploitably rather than optimally. If this is true why bother with other lines when u can just jam/fold PF .

Also I think it's possible the amount of randomness, variability and incomplete information in HUNL could potentially make it so the best possible GTO strategy will be too far away what it actually should be to the point where it could be beaten by a few players. As a disclaimer tho I have no **** clue what im talking about

I played against Sonia for a bit online. Can't remember where, it was probably around 2 years ago or so. Found the link on this site somewhere. The one thing I noticed is pre-flop Sonia limped on the button a lot instead of always raising like most hu lhe players.

Think a few of the serious bot makers out there uses this exact strategy actually.

Even the best HU LHE player in the world wouldnt stand a chance imho. 2-3+ years ago sure, but the most recent GTO bots are super strong at HU LHE.

probably because it would be exploitable at most stack sizes