Do you really think that a civil claim and a criminal penalty have equal precedence of claim on a felon's assets?

If the defendants are found guilty their debt to the state will take priority. Are you aware of a jurisdiction where this is not the case?

There are even those who think putting the claims of the state ahead of the claims of an individual is just.

Please edit my cliffs on FT (read about 3 hours tonight on 2p2 and not sure I understand it all)

- Owners paid themselves money from players accounts
- Players accounts became bogus (because all or most of the money was not really there)
- Players played each other with phantom money (since their accounts were empty)
- Full Tilt (like a Ponzi scheme) operated hoping players would not ‘run on the bank’
- In 2010, (here’s where I don’t understand FT’s thinking) Full Tilt accepts US players deposits but can’t get their money – why do this?
What benefit is it to FT to boost a players account without real money?

and finally - Why are they so stupid not to think this was not going to topple?

I guess a big part of the problem is that FTP haven't been able to show / prove that the frozen money specifically belongs to players. But I agree, it seems ridiculous that one country's administration can trample over the interests of people all over the world. Without politarding the thread, it's fair to say the US have some history in this area though!

If the DOJ's priority were to have the players paid before they took their cut then the smart thing to do would be to give the software for free to anyone willing to cover the debt to the non-US players. They would get much more that way than by selling the software only, on an auction. The frozen money in addition to what the pros may give back should suffice to pay the US players and leave some for the DOJ.

But I am afraid this won't be the order of payments. The DOJ now asks for $110M as penalty for money laundering from Bitar,Ferguson, etc. Unless these are paid first I don't expect the player's to get anything back and I would seriously doubt Bitar etc could afford to pay that much. The money frozen already would offset a potential fine for FTP. I don't expect there will be much left for the players.

http://www.poker-king.com/poker-king...p?article=1192

The two day Full Tilt Poker hearing in London has reportedly come to an end. The company is now awaiting a decision from the AGCC (Alderney Gambling Control Commission).

The hearing was held "in camera", which means that the general public was unable to attend. This means that we have absolutely no idea as to what was said/proposed at the hearing.

During the second day of the Full Tilt Poker hearing, the Department of Justice dropped a bomb, claiming that Full Tilt Poker was nothing more than a massive "Ponzi scheme". You can read more about that here.

Given the events of earlier today, will the AGCC grant Full Tilt Poker another extension to try and close a deal, or will they just pull the plug on Full Tilt's licenses? Before the DoJ dropped their bomb earlier today, I thought that another extension was quite likely - after today's events, who knows? I can't see any way that a company or individual investor would be interested in investing in the wreckage that is Full Tilt Poker at this point...

A source (who wants to stay anonymous) who is close to the situation said this:

"No more hearing tomorrow. Just waiting on decision now. Not sure what else to say."

The hearing is over. Decision time...

@ Hdemet: nice work ITT.

Care to elaborate on the following? Or have you done so already and I missed it? Cheers …

Could you copy/paste?

I can see Preet Bharara wearing his to the Yankees games

The two day Full Tilt Poker hearing in London has reportedly come to an end. The company is now awaiting a decision from the AGCC (Alderney Gambling Control Commission).

The hearing was held "in camera", which means that the general public was unable to attend. This means that we have absolutely no idea as to what was said/proposed at the hearing.

During the second day of the Full Tilt Poker hearing, the Department of Justice dropped a bomb, claiming that Full Tilt Poker was nothing more than a massive "Ponzi scheme". You can read more about that here.

Given the events of earlier today, will the AGCC grant Full Tilt Poker another extension to try and close a deal, or will they just pull the plug on Full Tilt's licenses? Before the DoJ dropped their bomb earlier today, I thought that another extension was quite likely - after today's events, who knows? I can't see any way that a company or individual investor would be interested in investing in the wreckage that is Full Tilt Poker at this point...

A source (who wants to stay anonymous) who is close to the situation said this:

"No more hearing tomorrow. Just waiting on decision now. Not sure what else to say."

thank you all!

One thing I have learnt in this whole mess is that there is clearly a Charles Ponzi appreciation society and they will defend to the death the name of their hero's eponymous scheme being used erroneously.

Apparently they also shill internet message boards. Definitely the most interesting development for me.

As another non-US player who has lost money in this, I feel I have to point out that recent news makes this viepoint outdated.

I used to feel that legal issues surrounding poker in the USA had led to my assets on FT being frozen.

This is clearly now not true. The money is simply not there! This is not the fault of the DoJ, the government, american poker legislation or anything else. It now transpires the money was simply STOLEN. This is straightforward theft, and we cannot blame the DoJ for pulling the rug out from under a crooked company run by crooked individuals.

Like I say, I used to blame the DoJ and the AGCC. Now I realise that I (and most other posters on this thread) are simply the victims of a massive corporate fraud. I hope they go to jail for a very long time.

http://dealbreaker.com/2011/09/on-th...of-free-poker/

Dealbreaker article from last night. Lead editor Bess Levin is a friend of poker, good article.

Hi,

I would like to see what people that are really into this (maybe even Durrr) think of the chances that FTP finds an investor post-Civil class action suit.

Because obviously this is a bad thing but it opens new doors as well.

As how I see it (not being delusional, just reason) there is no way the current board of directors can ever continue (obv). This opens new opportunities to new investors. With a financial injection and new management it might be a longterm +EV investment of buying up FTP and it's debts. Along with some decent marketing and changing the brand in someway (less of the play and chat with the pro's, more focus on good software and stuff) FTP might restore from this, maybe not to it's former glory but at least become a competent pokerroom again.

Another way this can be seen is the death of FTP tho but I would like to know what people that are into these things think of this post.

Keep your ******ed posts for yourselves please I would like a structured discussion about this matter.

Also there is a difference between being delusional and non-pessimistic

the only ppl to blame are morons at FTP the screwed up one the biggest cash cows on the planet

I just hope the DOJ makes sure they money they have is the players and make sure the ROW players are treated equally on getting this money back

They should make an FTP discussion thread for all FTP discussions to take place for the time being.....

why the hell somebody should buy FTP now?
they have really really bad name... our money are gone, so called professionals are stupid thiefs and nothing more..
i ll bet that we lose everything and we ll wait for like 4% for a months or year.
and only question of time when they will take their licence and announce bankrupcy.
there is no place for optimism now i guess.

Honestly can't see any chance. The negatives are all known. Wouldn't it be easier for someone with the funds required to buy what is left of FTP AND fill the $300+ million pothole in the balance sheet to just start a new site if they wanted to be in legal internet poker?

Tarnished brand is tarnished

Wired have an article about FTP on their homepage, with a screenshot of PKR. Great research, not!

You can trust the DOJ to do the right thing or you can hate them and not trust them for whatever reason true or false. They have the power and all the ranting on any forum will change nothing. They hold all the cards and we can only hope that some of their statements about recovering player funds was not BS. This latest release is a positive, but what will come of it is hard to know. I simply think the DOJ is the players only real chance for getting at least something back, and that's likely a stretch too. This mess sux when you need something like the DOJ to be on your side!

With apologies to mods:

[IMG]http://*********/dm-7OK5.jpg[/IMG]

In b4 the DOJ siezes all thier houses in the USA. Guess Howard wont be selling his Vegas house.

I am still convinced there are a lot of casual players in the US and worldwide that blame the US gov't for what happened to FTP.

I think if FTP opened tomorrow with new financial backing and a new business model, people would again flock to play there.

Part of it would be the same reason people continued to play on UB/AP, because the games were softer.

The legal grey zone associated with online poker is the biggest variable that keeps it from being a good investment.

If the US DOJ worked out a plan with investors to work with the legalization of online poker in the US, there is still hope.

What will likely happen is anyone interested in purchasing FTP will wait until they settle with the players for x/$ and settle with the DOJ, purchase the name and software after with no liability for previous goings on.

This. The average person isn't going to understand fully what has occured. They just get general soundbites. Illegal. Shutdown. Ponzi. And thus the reputation of all poker players are tainted by association.