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FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP) FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)
View Poll Results: Do you want the AGCC to regulate the new FTP?
Yes
1,156 56.58%
No
887 43.42%

09-11-2011 , 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmoney89
I was unaware the phone call would be so expensive. I'm pretty sure a criminal defense attorney wouldn't have had any other platform to reveal anything aside from someone contacting them in the first place. Maybe I am mistaken.
I would imagine a phone call is a lot less expensive than a lawsuit...
09-11-2011 , 05:04 AM
Nice 1st post
09-11-2011 , 05:05 AM
http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/FTP_statement.pdf

"... The AGCC has also imposed a condition that requires the licensees comprising FTP to arrange for the ring-fencing of identified players’ funds under their control. ...
5th September 2011"

I don't understand why this money can't be distributed to players even if it's only 20 cents on the dollar or whatever. It's not FTP's money and I'd feel much happier if my share of it was sitting in my bank account instead of FTP's. It would be easy enough for FTP to open a withdrawals only site, they don't need a license to do that.
09-11-2011 , 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale
Please expand on why the UIGEA made people feel better about their online money, I always accept correction. Further, I thought it was understood that I was speaking to U.S. players. You played on Euro sites, that's a different situation entirely.

I also don't understand how you can say that expecting lost funds was illogical and irrational, nor how you can rely on history. What history? A few years of nothing going wrong while huge sums of money were being deposited? That's not much history in my estimation. And then along came the UIGEA, a U.S. law specifically designed to cripple the online gambling business for U.S. players. I really don't get your point.

I take the 'shame on me' to be due to my being critical of people that I think were short-sighted and relied on the unreliable. I don't feel ashamed of that.
I don't understand how you didn't get that. He means that when all those other sites cut off US when UIGEA came, they paid out all US players without problems(at least the dozen he played on, and he never heard of anyone getting problems), therefore UIGEA made people feel safer about their online money, and historically there was no reason to expect to lose money even if other sites stopped serving US players. And eurosites are obv just eurosites now not then...
Feel free to continue your gloating now, it's obv that you are a bit dense though. Go **** yourself.

edit: sry if I got something wrong or misunderstood your post chumpchange.
09-11-2011 , 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by la6ki
But ROW player WERE getting payed. Even if it took longer.

EDIT: And how much money are they protecting by shutting down the site anyway? Those "unsuspecting" players are probably clueless fish who are going to deposit $100 and go broke 2 days later anyway. So, the AGCC decided to sacrifice players with $300 M to save those unsuspecting fish from losing their petty deposits which they were going to lose anyway?
First of all the AGCC sacrificed noone. This $300m just was not there, nor was it coming from anywhere. They did the correct thing in shutting down the site. The AGCC has a large part of the blame for what has happened at FTP, but the blame lies in the fact they did not ensure FTP was sticking to the rules of their licence pre blackfriday, not that they shut down the site when they did.

Second of all yes withdrawls after black friday were being processed, but they were getting slower and further and further apart, even for small amounts. FTP did not have anywhere near the cash on hand in the ROTW balances and could not keep up with withdrawls, they were lying to players to try and get them to deposit ("business as usual"). The whole site was crumbling and eventually there would have been such a huge backlog of withdrawls anyone but the KGC would have pulled the plug. I personally know several players who had small 4fig amounts pending for 1month+ and received nothing by the shutdown.

Lastly you are advocating that players who did not know the full extent of what was going on should have been allowed to deposit, into a complete black hole, to increase your chances of getting paid, because "they were clueless fish who were going to lose their money anyway". You are no better than the people who have run the site in a way that has led to everyone losing their money and them getting rich.
09-11-2011 , 05:27 AM
I had a few 4 figure cash outs from fulltilt to my bank account in Germany prior to the shutdown and it never took longer than 4 business days.That's a fact.
09-11-2011 , 05:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilclon
Cheers for this.
Any idea where can I find similar info on the other Class Action filed against FTP by Zayn Jetha and Donald Whelan on behalf of players worldwide?
I did forget to mention one other interesting thing in the motion filed to Canadian Court...

HOWARD LEDERER, CHRIS FERGUSON, JENNIFER HARMAN-TRANIELLO, ERICK LINDGREN, ERICK SEIDEL, ANDREW BLOCH, MIKE MATUSOW, and ALLEN CUNNINGHAM, care of ALAIN JEFFREY IFRAH, attorney at IFRAH PLLC, practising his profession at 1717 Pennsylvania Avenue, Suite 650, Washington, D.C., 20006-2004, USA

My understanding was that he was asking to be removed from defense team on other class action lawsuits?

So my initial reaction is : "uh???"
09-11-2011 , 05:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperJez
Second of all yes withdrawls after black friday were being processed, but they were getting slower and further and further apart, even for small amounts. FTP did not have anywhere near the cash on hand in the ROTW balances and could not keep up with withdrawls, they were lying to players to try and get them to deposit ("business as usual"). The whole site was crumbling and eventually there would have been such a huge backlog of withdrawls anyone but the KGC would have pulled the plug. I personally know several players who had small 4fig amounts pending for 1month+ and received nothing by the shutdown.
This is one view of what was going to happen. Another view is that when ROW players got their mid year bonuses and were being able to withdraw money faster the trust in FT would start rebuilding and players redepositing, etc. And eventually all players might have gotten payed. And it's not true that withdrawals were happening slower and slower. In fact, initially LBTs were taking more than a month sometimes, but right before the AGCC shut down the site they were happening immediately. It's true that Neteller withdrawals had slowed down, but I just don't see a confirmation for your claims overall.

Fact remains that by shutting down FT, the AGCC has effectively made it almost impossible for the people with 4+ figures on the site to get their money back. And for what? To save those who deposit 2-3 figures. Isn't THAT a better case of robbing peter to pay paul?
09-11-2011 , 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MICK E JUICE
Nice 1st post
If that was directed at me, thank you MEJ.
09-11-2011 , 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilclon
Cheers for this.
Any idea where can I find similar info on the other Class Action filed against FTP by Zayn Jetha and Donald Whelan on behalf of players worldwide?
I already posted this when it first came out, but here it is again:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...5MWY2&hl=en_US
09-11-2011 , 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchNoob
Here is the complete motion filed to Superior Court of Quebec for approval :
http://www.clg.org/pdf/Motion%20for%...OKER%20LTD.pdf

The Part C) THE SITUATION is pretty interesting and could be posted as a good "cliffs" post regarding FTP and BF.

Apparently, the main plaintiff would own between 1$ and 5$ on FTP (no extra numbers missing here) !!!

One interesting point with this collective action is that, as stated in the motion : "given the costs and risks inherent in an action before the courts, many people will hesitate to institute an individual action against the Respondents."

If what the PR says on the CLG web site proves true, then this could prove appealing for canadian players regardless of how much of their $ are stuck on FTP :

IF YOU WISH TO JOIN THE CLASS ACTION OR TO SIMPLY GET MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE COMPLETE THE FORM BELOW. Please note that providing your information creates no financial obligation for you. You are not charged any fee or cost for joining this class action. Our law firm is paid a contingency fee from the compensation recovered, only if the class action is successful. All information contained in this transmission is confidential and Consumer Law Group agrees to protect this information against unauthorized use, publication or disclosure.

PS : I have no connexion with this or any other info that which was posted on their site http://www.clg.org/Class-Action/List...l-Class-Action

Story's been reported by Montreal Gazette http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...301/story.html and other sources.

The motion PDF makes a good read for anyone looking to know things such as living adresses of defendants or the official adress of FTP Offices in L.A.

I am somewhat surprised they would publicly release things like Phil Ivey's home adress... or asserting things like he's owning "at least 5%" of FTP. I am noting that those info and assertions were absent of US lawsuits.
First let me re-iterate that I am 100% for all players to get their money back.

I am not an attorney, but on it's surface, this complaint is so full of factual inaccuracies that it will never get far imo. It appears to be hastily put together, with cuts and pastes from all over the net with no cohesion. I have to assume that whoever wrote this has no clue about the circumstances, didnt bother to investigate any of it, or had some need to make a filing hastily without regard to facts.

Sad really, but I would not suggest a player put all their eggs in that basket at all. Obv JMHO
09-11-2011 , 06:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by la6ki
This is one view of what was going to happen. Another view is that when ROW players got their mid year bonuses and were being able to withdraw money faster the trust in FT would start rebuilding and players redepositing, etc. And eventually all players might have gotten payed. And it's not true that withdrawals were happening slower and slower. In fact, initially LBTs were taking more than a month sometimes, but right before the AGCC shut down the site they were happening immediately. It's true that Neteller withdrawals had slowed down, but I just don't see a confirmation for your claims overall.

Fact remains that by shutting down FT, the AGCC has effectively made it almost impossible for the people with 4+ figures on the site to get their money back. And for what? To save those who deposit 2-3 figures. Isn't THAT a better case of robbing peter to pay paul?
If a company simply doesn't have enough money to cover player's funds, there is absolutely no way a commission should let it continue to run. PERIOD. People live off poker and they have a right to get THEIR money whenever THEY want it. Cashouts were NOT getting faster, just read the numerous threads in 2+2.

Where do you expect FTP to pull the mid year bonus $$$$ from? Lol. It would've put them in an even worse situation.
09-11-2011 , 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash1982
If a company simply doesn't have enough money to cover player's funds, there is absolutely no way a commission should let it continue to run. PERIOD. People live off poker and they have a right to get THEIR money whenever THEY want it. Cashouts were NOT getting faster, just read the numerous threads in 2+2.

Where do you expect FTP to pull the mid year bonus $$$$ from? Lol. It would've put them in an even worse situation.
I was reading the threads you're talking about. I was one of the people withdrawing money ffs. LBTs were working super fast, people all over the world were being able to withdraw immediately.

"People live off poker and they have a right to get THEIR money whenever THEY want it"

Yeah, people aren't getting their money on time, so let's make sure they NEVER get it. Brilliant.
09-11-2011 , 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by la6ki
I was reading the threads you're talking about. I was one of the people withdrawing money ffs. LBTs were working super fast, people all over the world were being able to withdraw immediately.

"People live off poker and they have a right to get THEIR money whenever THEY want it"

Yeah, people aren't getting their money on time, so let's make sure they NEVER get it. Brilliant.
First and foremost, I'm not defending the AGCC in any way, but let's be honest...wtf were they supposed to do. The problem is they didn't do their due diligence on FTP prior to BF and hence probably had no idea of the management/financial problems ensuing.
09-11-2011 , 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Percival
Actually, together, Howard Lederer, Phil Ivey, Chris Ferguson and other share holders combined, may have enough set aside in personal cash and assets by now to settle matters. But those guys may know that they can do better than that, by saying and doing nothing for the time being.

What typically happens in these circumstances is that deals will be made with law enforcement, to avoid serious jail time, and admit no wrongdoing. Say FT owes $100,000,000 (hypothetically). They may work a deal to pay $40,000,000, serve five years probation, and admit no wrongdoing - just taking the position that as founders, they trusted the wrong people to run the company, or some bull**** like that. The 'admit no wrongdoing' part of the deal is HUGE, as it can work against future civil claimants' arguments in court.

In the end, principle shareholders retain much of their personal fortunes, and all eventually return to living a semi-normal life. Well, except for the slashed tires, the death threats, parking lot beatdowns, loud, spontaneous and embarrassing public confrontations, spit in your meal by the waiter who's $500 got stuck on FT, ...basically, the rat fuque you didn't see coming type of treatment --for life. But other than that, normal.

In a more beautiful World, those guys could step back into the spotlight like the Three Musketeers, to ice the black eye that they've given Poker - being a corrupt industry. Those three could man-up, honorably, accepting full responsibility, and turn the Poker World on it's head with the kind of self-less act that could literally change EVERYTHING. They could wear that like a badge of honor and the political gain from doing so would help them all to regain their fortunes and even pave new roads of success in any direction they chose in Poker. Of course it would mean starting over, giving up their fortunes for now, living modest lives, and rebuilding. Maybe not with the Full Tilt brand, or who knows, ...maybe even rebuilding Full Tilt.

So now we get to see the choices these guys make in their lives moving forward. Howard Lederer, The Most Influential Person in Poker, as explained by Bluff Magazine earlier this year; Phil Ivey, #6 on Bluff's 'Most Influential' top 20 list and Full Tilt's principle marketing assett; and Chris Ferguson, Ph.D holder in computer science, and master of FT technology. Why don't they own the wreck? Why haven't they stepped in as a trio, and shown the poker World what leaders do?

Cowards run, heroes fight if there's something worth fighting for - that's just life. All the other hypothetical weighing of outcomes is just avoiding facing the challenge. Own the wreck guys, win back the trust and you'll have it as a base in everything you do for the rest of your lives.

Awesome post.
09-11-2011 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by la6ki
I was reading the threads you're talking about. I was one of the people withdrawing money ffs. LBTs were working super fast, people all over the world were being able to withdraw immediately.

"People live off poker and they have a right to get THEIR money whenever THEY want it"

Yeah, people aren't getting their money on time, so let's make sure they NEVER get it. Brilliant.
LBT was actually one of the slowest withdrawal methods, people had more luck withdrawing by card.

USA players have been waiting for how long? How many months do you think it would take for FTP to rake in the $150M they would have needed? They were lying to players 'your money is safe'. Bull****!!

The AGCC pulling the plug was the best thing for customers as it should have made sure FTP got their s*** together and get an investor quick time so everyone can get payed. But no, they wasted valuable time with a stupid exclusivity agreement that amounted to nothing.

I understand your frustration as I personally was waiting for a withdrawal and would have wanted the AGCC to wait a few more months for me to get my worth. But if you look at the bigger picture, this had to be done.

Last edited by Hash1982; 09-11-2011 at 07:04 AM.
09-11-2011 , 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by la6ki
I was reading the threads you're talking about. I was one of the people withdrawing money ffs. LBTs were working super fast, people all over the world were being able to withdraw immediately.

"People live off poker and they have a right to get THEIR money whenever THEY want it"

Yeah, people aren't getting their money on time, so let's make sure they NEVER get it. Brilliant.
Just because you were receiving cashouts post BF, does not mean everyone was sir. Congrats on being part of the "chosen/lucky" group, but Ive heard from scores of ppl that tried and got zero, including many with 6 figure balances.
In the end, just consider the fact, keeping FTP open would not have gotten everyone paid, I dont understand what part of that people do not understand.

THERE IS NO MONEY TO PAY YOU
09-11-2011 , 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by la6ki
Isn't THAT a better case of robbing peter to pay paul?

So you think Bernie Madoff should have been kept in operation in the hopes that he could earn enough to pay certain customers off?
09-11-2011 , 07:33 AM
as a UK player, what means of legal action can I take against FTP?

Want to get as much info as I can, may consult with a solicitor at some point
09-11-2011 , 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond_Flush
Just because you were receiving cashouts post BF, does not mean everyone was sir. Congrats on being part of the "chosen/lucky" group, but Ive heard from scores of ppl that tried and got zero, including many with 6 figure balances.
In the end, just consider the fact, keeping FTP open would not have gotten everyone paid, I dont understand what part of that people do not understand.

THERE IS NO MONEY TO PAY YOU
I wasn't actually. I had been waiting for about 25 days for one of my withdrawals when AGCC pulled the plug. I still think I had better chances of seeing that money if they hadn't pulled the plug, compared to my chances now.
09-11-2011 , 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berlino
So you think Bernie Madoff should have been kept in operation in the hopes that he could earn enough to pay certain customers off?
Not familiar enough with this to comment and/or make comparisons with the FT situation.
09-11-2011 , 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash1982
LBT was actually one of the slowest withdrawal methods, people had more luck withdrawing by card.
The 2 weeks before the shut down, LBT was working pretty fast. You can read the "cashouts for non-US players" if you don't believe me.

Quote:
USA players have been waiting for how long? How many months do you think it would take for FTP to rake in the $150M they would have needed? They were lying to players 'your money is safe'. Bull****!!

The AGCC pulling the plug was the best thing for customers as it should have made sure FTP got their s*** together and get an investor quick time so everyone can get payed. But no, they wasted valuable time with a stupid exclusivity agreement that amounted to nothing.
I understand that the US players were in a way worse situation than the rest, but again, I don't see how what AGCC did helped them either. They could have pressured FT to find investors without shutting them down.
09-11-2011 , 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by la6ki
I understand that the US players were in a way worse situation than the rest, but again, I don't see how what AGCC did helped them either. They could have pressured FT to find investors without shutting them down.
Let an (effectively) Ponzi continue at the benefit only of existing US customers

No decent regulator would do this

I bet you Madoff's existing investors were crying the same line
09-11-2011 , 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale
Please expand on why the UIGEA made people feel better about their online money, I always accept correction. Further, I thought it was understood that I was speaking to U.S. players. You played on Euro sites, that's a different situation entirely.

I also don't understand how you can say that expecting lost funds was illogical and irrational, nor how you can rely on history. What history? A few years of nothing going wrong while huge sums of money were being deposited? That's not much history in my estimation. And then along came the UIGEA, a U.S. law specifically designed to cripple the online gambling business for U.S. players. I really don't get your point.

I take the 'shame on me' to be due to my being critical of people that I think were short-sighted and relied on the unreliable. I don't feel ashamed of that.
Yeah, perhaps that could've been clearer. What I mean is: Situation 1) It is 2005, I play on some poker sites, some legal stuff happens, I can't play on some of these sites anymore, the sites give me back my money. Situation 2) It is 2011, I play on some poker sites, some legal stuff happens, I can't play on some of these sites anymore, ???.


p.s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xereles
...

edit: sry if I got something wrong or misunderstood your post chumpchange.
nope, nailed it

Last edited by Chump Change; 09-11-2011 at 08:10 AM.
09-11-2011 , 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vamooose
Let an (effectively) Ponzi continue at the benefit only of existing US customers

No decent regulator would do this

I bet you Madoff's existing investors were crying the same line
AGCC is a decent regulator. LOL

      
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