explain?

Your example is comparing apples to oranges. Even with trhta, chances are they would allow you to keep the money. The US Governement is going after drug dealers not inncoucent victims.

The fact that he used the borrowed money to deal in drugs doesn't mean you aren't entitled to a reasonable profit on a loan made in good faith. The fact that you are not a regulated financial institution might, IDK.

People have got to realize that when a bad actor makes legitimate commercial trades using stolen money, the person with whom he deals gets to keep the money, except possibly if the second party knew the money was stolen.

The difference with the distributions to FTP's owners is that those were not legitimate commercial transactions. The owners might not be able to keep distributions to which they were not entitled. However, if the owners didn't know the distributions were not legitimate and if the value of the distributions can be recovered from the people responsible for them - the directors, I don't see why the owners would also have to give up the money. It doesn't have to be paid back twice (except if somebody gets RICO damages, then it's three times). If the wrongly distributed money cannot be recovered from the directors, then there is a chance the owners will have to give something back.

yes I understand party, but my point is the PPA may no longer have the money. Even if they could claw back the money, how far to you go. What about the ads FTP paided for to various networks? What about bonuses they gave for making deposits? Where do you draw the line? What happens if one of the director shareowner gets divoiced and half his dividend money goes to his wife. His ex buys a big house, invests in a busniess, can you take money from her?


My whole point is your putting the horse before the cart. The first order is to sell FTP and obatin funds to pay back players. if there is not engought funds, the second step is to go after the personal assets of the directors who made the decsion to issue the dividends. Even if the director only received 50 million in dividends but has net assets of 100 million, you can go after it all, its the law.

Well, when he got to the part where a major FTP shareholder was explaining why the deal had to be pushed back from last week, he went to " . . . blah, blah, blah . . . " I can't understand why he wouldn't publish the details if he had them.

Agreed. Would have liked some insight as to why.

Traffic Jamm is right.
Pure speculation to follow

This is my break down of a possible deal.

PS would OWE 300 mil to players plus 50mil just to get going (relaunch expenses etc)

Of the amount OWED
150 to US players immediately GONE.
50 mil to relaunch GONE
75 mil ROW players GONE.*
roughly 275mil gone immediately.

*At least 50% of row funds will be withdrawn... I think winning players will leave a decent amount of money on only BC its PS owned. If it was gbt it'd be 80-95% ... Anyway in my opinion FTP has enough value to negate whatever they owe to ROW players after half withdrawal so I will consider remaining player balances a non factor ... ironic I know

Anyway so 275$$$ gone instantly

+ doj fine unknown a range IMO of 225 - 500 mil.
= a total range of 500-775...


Now... they don't necessarily have to pay the DOJ fine immediately which is a huge plus... this will be a major factor...

Given a 1bil indictment + possible jail time and all the down side of losing the case they could make a deal.

So it all depends how confident the two parties are in their cases.


If poker stars is 75% confident given that their downside includes jail I say they'd pay

40% of 1 bill and no or limited limited jail time is there best offer.
Leaving merely no money to the DOJ after saving FTP.

I think PS has to be 50% or less confident to make a deal work. Or be willing to go up to 600 mil. -700 mil.


Then there is the unsolved issue of the fine to FTP...
And being able to operate in the US

Sigh Gl players

The doj is supposed to represent the people but that's an entirely different issue. if the players made a lot of noise over being robbed the doj may have been forced to seize assets from the owners. Instead we wait and see for a year while they have time to prepare and hide money. Instead of speaking together and being one
Voice the majority of you would rather fight with each other and try to make really cool message board jokes about each other. Seems like the same accounts always appear with an angry tirade of text whenever someone questions the latest white knight story. The time has passed and the carrot dangling to keep us chasing our tails will change every few months. I guess it's just a coincidence whenever the morale in here is the lowest a small story breaks that gives new hope. Amazing how of all these story's not one has been an official announcement from anyone.

Good thing hindsight is 20 20

Glantz yada yada'd the explanation on why the PS/DOJ deal wasn't consumated last Monday.

Instead he wrote a badly written article on how PS' motivation for a deal was the ability to operate in the US when online poker is legalized, the DOJ's inability to offer that and Ceasar's incentive and ability to block PS from operating.

Which is fine as far as it goes. The only problem is that this isn't something PS wouldn't have been able to figure out before they entered talks with the DOJ. The fact that they did and are close to an agreement indicates that this is not the probem . If Glantz wanted to write something interesting he would have explained why PS could have legitimately hoped that they could get that from the DOJ, but they have trouble doing so now.

This thing is such a mess. We've been forced to resort to reading some random players blog and just hoping he has good information when we all know it is unlikely.

What is true is that we are totally in the dark right now. It's really damn hard to speculate what could have caused a deal expected to be signed to not get signed at the last minute. Almost all of the suggested reasons of what has gone wrong are nothing 'new' and thus should have already been considered by both sides that were supposedly ready to close the deal.

So that basically leaves a few different possible likely scenarios.

1. One of these already considered issues morphed in some way to make one of the parties at the table less interested in closing the deal than before.

2. Something new happened that we have no idea about. Some new information or change in something significant that caused the deal to collapse at the 11th hour.

3. What the lawyer tweeted was actually true. Stars was, to some extent, bluffing and doesn't really want this to happen as much as it was using it as a bargaining chip to be played.


It's really confusing how we can have no idea what went wrong. Even though people have indicated a specific day it was supposed to close, those same people won't say what went wrong. Should that be a good sign because they are still expecting it, or a bad sign because they don't want to reveal what is going to be the poison pill in all of this, who the hell knows, but those that do, sure aren't telling us.

I wish someone who actually knew what is going on AT THE TABLE would tell us the truth about where things really stand. And by the truth, I don't just mean "the two sides are negotiating and there is nothing else to say". By the truth I mean, "The two sides WANT this to happen or one of the sides is NOT committed to making this happen, or I am aware of the negotiations and have good reason to believe they will be concluded positively or negatively" or anything else a lot more informative than what we are being given. It's just getting so sickening being left in the dark any longer. And yes, it has already been a crazy long time, but I guess I've finally hit my breaking point and having to wonder is really starting to bring my life down. Please don't respond to this by just telling me to move on and pretend the money is gone.

Thanks for listening.

So if the player's had just spoken up more, with ONE VOICE, it would have changed the reach the DOJ has and enabled them to bypass the legal process and liquidate all of the owners assets to pay back the players. Alright got it, wished we had done that!

Seems so simple now, look at all the agravation that we could have avoided

Making Internet jokes is clearly the way to go though. If you sit by the computer a little more and wait for a good opportunity to make fun of more things you don't agree with maybe that will get everyone money back? Really what is the point of appearing everytime someone posts something you don't agree with and trying to be funny? It's old and not funny.

Where is the joke? I was just summarizing your no-fail plan of attack that players should have abided by. Are you calling your plan a joke?

There is no more evidence that something went wrong than there is that the deal is complete, other than insiders' insistence that if the deal was done we would have heard about it immediately.

There are legitimate, reasonable scenarios that would fit into the "blah blah blah" that came after Glantz's "“It is a done deal with PokerStars and was supposed to be completed last week but had to be pushed back for...".

I hope your plan of being "the next world champ" doesn't involve comedy. Anyways I stick to my opinion.

http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/...-judge-587604/

Wish it said more

Everything in there was reported in here on Monday...

see my post from earlier. Have I got it right or what

Very impressive, but can you also use your powers in a useful way and predict when the hell i get my ****ing money back?

It's like I am in a $22k and I am already waiting 15 months on a freaking rivercard to be dealt.

But in that situation, you know your equity!