Useful post! Thanks!

Pretty sure all I did was call out a lie and replace it with a fact. Just because FTP owners have been $@##@$s, doesn't mean we need to slander them or lie about the situation. The truth is bad enough to shine a light on them in a very negative way, but calling out untruths and replacing them with facts with regards to this whole mess is a good thing.

Just saw this on DOJ website. The guy got 42 months in prison for defrauding his customers for $400K and was ordered to pay full restitution to the victims. Guess we need to report FTP as a big fraud to the DOJ and let DOJ do its work if we dont see our money.

Missouri CPA Sentenced to 42 Months in Prison for Mail Fraud and Tax Evasion
WASHINGTON – Murphy Hubbard, a Springfield, Mo., CPA, was sentenced on Sept. 7, 2011, to 42 months in prison for his mail fraud and tax evasion convictions, the Justice Department and Internal Revenue Service (IRS) announced today. Sentence was imposed by District Court Judge Ortrie D. Smith in the Western District of Missouri and follows a plea of guilty to two counts of mail fraud and one count of tax evasion previously entered by the defendant. Hubbard was remanded into custody immediately following the sentencing.



According to court documents, Hubbard owned and operated an accounting and tax business known as The Hubbard Group PC. Hubbard embezzled more than $400,000 from two trusts placed under his control by local families between 1998 and 2009. The first of these trusts, created by Ms. Hazel Beatrice S. Hirst of Springfield designated four local charities as the beneficiaries of her life’s savings. The second trust, established by the heirs of Mr. Noel C. Rummens of Rogersville, Mo., was created for the express purpose of funding educational expenses for Mr. Rummens’s surviving heirs and relatives.



Rather than fulfilling the wishes of these families by faithfully executing their trust agreements, Hubbard instead took the vast majority of this money for himself, using it to pay personal expenses, to buy items such as automobiles and farm equipment and for travel. Virtually all of the money taken from these trusts went unreported to the IRS, resulting in a tax loss of approximately $79,434.



In addition to the 42 month prison term, Judge Smith also ordered Hubbard to pay full restitution to the victims in this case, including $389,221 to the lawful representatives of the estate of Ms. Hirst and the Noel C. Rummens Educational Trust and $79,434 to the IRS.



The case was investigated by the IRS – Criminal Investigation and prosecuted by Tax Division Trial Attorneys Michael C. Boteler and Mitchell S. Bober, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Steven M. Mohlhenrich for the Western District of Missouri.

Reading comprehension much? That is exactly what he is saying....ftp value is so little no one will touch it via his car analogy...and he is spot on....others have argued those who claim ftp has enough value for investors to look at are indeed idiots.

lol, you really want to have a semantics debate? We ALL know what has been implied by some people and what I was referring to. People have been claiming that the value of FTP, ASIDE FROM ITS LIABILITIES, is in and of itself very low and this is outright crap. That is all I have been arguing against. FTP is worth a LOT of money but as I have said 100x but you choose to ignore, I do not know if it is worth enough to make it a good investment given its liability.

What I showed with betsafe just reinforces that FTP has a a very large price tag. Some have been trying to claim that FTP isn't even worth 50mil right now, and I would say it is easily worth >100million. The problem is, 100 million doesn't cut it and I nor you know how much it is really worth.

But please spare everyone a derail to try to play cute word games. It's pathetic. I will place you on ignore. Take care.

What's the point in filing Bankruptcy when you're a)no longer in business and b)no one has a way to legally collect their money from you?

I believe you have misunderstood my figures and post

On BF they lost all American players and that this represented 50% of their business

Then after BF when they didnt start paying back US players and becasue they started slow paying the RoW players they started losing around 5-10% of those a week

Please indicate where I have lied????

Or have the decency to apologize or show me alternate figures.

Prove to us how it's worth anything minus the liabilities. Their name is worth absolutely zero, their software and hardware are obviously worth some money but no where near the "a lot" of money you claim. What else is there champ?

Your lie is pretty clear. They did not lose 5-10% a week for 10 weeks. That is utter crap and you pulled it out of your pooper. They also lost a bit less than 50% on BF but that is not the issue I am calling you out on. FTP was still going strong on 6/28 and there numbers had not gone down THAT much from 4/15. Nowhere near 7.5% a week. On top of everything that happened, they only had lost 38% of the player base comparing 6/20/2010 and 6/20/2011. I'd say that's a far cry from what you are trying to claim. According to your numbers (since FTP did not grow THAT much from 6/20/2010 to 4/15/2011) FTP's numbers should have been down 75% on that date, not 38%.

I hate to play such a childish game, but maybe it is you that should have the decency to apologize for your slander. You pulled your facts out of your butt and that sucks.

Now, so as not to sidetrack this whole thread, I am not saying FTP can expect to have 62% of it's player base pre BF if it were to reopen. If it loses 33% of its ROW customers from this last three months mess, that would mean that it would have about 40% of it's player base if it reopened compared to 6/20/2010. That is definitely a big drop, and as I am trying to point out, I have no clue if it is definitely too big for a profitable investment given it's liabilities, but it'd still have it FAR and away the number 2 poker room in the world. I don't have the energy to calculate what % of the ROW players would have to never come back to the site for it not to be #2, but if someone else does, go for it.

EDIT: More useful info that discredits the numbers you made up:

http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekl...r=2011&week=20

FTP only lost 41% right after BF so there goes the 50% number and by May 7th it had GAINED players and was only down 32% compared to pre BF. Then the Ivey crap happened and it prob lost 15% or so thereafter, but that puts the facts very far from what you stated.

God you are dumb..but this does demonstrate how numbers can be misleading

This link states FTP were down 38% year on year.

Not sure if this is accurate or not but lest assume it is.

FUll Tilt was still GROWING in that previous year and this can be seen by the significant increase in profits from year ending April 2009 to year ending 2010 which I can confidently say continued to year ending April 2011.

Now PLEASE get your FACTS straight before making wild inaccurate accusations and accusing me of lying.

And I didnt say that FTP lost 10% per week every week from BF it took a few weeks before the RoW realised FTP werent paying US players and that RoW players were being slow paid but interpet any fabrication you want from my figures.

I suggest you call Poker scout and ask them to explain exactly what their year on year -38% means and supply your figures as to how many RoW players remained at FTP come 29 June

If FT lost 40% of traffic on BF, then 7.25% a week for 5 weeks, by the time they pulled the plug they were at roughly 40% of their pre BF traffic. Not complicated figures.

Edit - although there were 10 weeks between BF and them pulling the plug... Didnt realise thought BF was May 15..

Anyway, the figures must be available easily, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 40% (or lower)...

Their name is worth absolutely zero only under current management. The brand will be worth a ton if it is under new management and the player fund is segregated. This is not any poker room. It was the 2nd biggest poker room in the world and on par with PS before BF. Just like PS, FTP has a big loyal following, especially among regs. Most of them will jump back the first chance they get as long as the player fund is guaranteed 100% safe.
Using the car analogy everybody liked , FTP is like a Ferrari driven by a bunch of drunk drivers and the brake on the car was missing too. But it is still a Ferrari. If you put a good driver and a good brake in place, the car will be worth a ton.

Extending the car analogy beyond breaking point, Full Tilt is a ferrari that has gone off a cliff. At least it certainly seems like the preferred investors decided it was a write off.

@Insidemanpoker

PS use your own figures and work out how much FTP is worth and see if you can fabricate a worthwhile business opportunity for someone to take over FTP

PPS Thise figures were for 20 June and the last 9 days before closure would probably have been their worst for losing players too

You want me to continue? or you want me to start trashing your response post line by line?

I tend to agree with this. Harry your contributions were much appreciated early on but at this point it seems like the vast majority of what you do is ramble on and on (rather pessimistically I might add).

Veyr true and I will admit it as I have lost all patience with FTP at present but have plenty of ammunition at my disposal should I choose to really go after them.

Maybe it's just your emotion, but you are proving to be bias and ranting. I have NEVER EVER said I believed one way or another whether FTP was a good investment so your pathetic and snide remark is just a bad attempt at a baseless insult. The only thing I have done above is prove how FOS your numbers were. You stated they lost 50% of their player base from 4/16 to 6/28 and that is a LIE. AN OUTRIGHT LIE. For this to have happened, they would have had to lose over 60% of their players from May 7th to June 28th and NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO THAT HAPPENED. Pretty cool PPS to claim they lost a ton of players from 6/20-6/28. What the hell do you base that BS on? Oh look, I found another article that shows how much lying you actually do. In that week, they GAINED 9%: http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekl...r=2011&week=27. They lost nowhere near the numbers post BF that you are claiming but you just wanted to make stuff up. oops.

Please go back to working hard on trying to represent the players and in the future, try not to just work in slanderous remarks. Because you have done so much, many things being positive, you have earned a lot of credibility so when you provide such falsified numbers, people will believe them. Your best work is making sure all the culprits hear your voice as an unofficial player rep. It is not in assessing the value of a company when you don't have a full insight into the books. So go after Team FTP, go after the AGCC, go after the DoJ, but don't spend too much energy on the numbers since FTPs balance sheets are NOT fully public. You have seen just one aspect of it, which as Noah said, doesn't mean that much without seeing the companies whose books are not public.

I guess my primary plea would be the following: Before every post or phone call, or whatever move it may be with regards to this mess, ask yourself 'will this help the situation?'. If the answer is yes or it is neutral, go right ahead. If it can only hurt, just don't do it. This goes for using all that ammo at the culprits etc etc. I would love nothing more than to see them punished severely should players not get paid but as long as this process continues, I am sure some forms of pressure are a lot more constructive than others so when possible and as hard as it may be, remove the emotion from the decisions. I am sure it is a skill you possess as a good poker player.

agreed.

Here are the stats from the day before Full Tilt shut rather tahn some other random week after BF. They lost 48% of their traffic since BF.



http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekl...r=2011&week=27

Now this would make this thread a lot more interesting than it's been of late.

Fill your boots I say

+1!

Hell man, IDK why, except maybe if they stop paying bills maybe BR is a way to make it legal to avoid "some" suits from "some" creditors, just like when an individual does it. Then again maybe not in this case. Guess we will find out eventully!

ding ding ding. I just had found this too and inserted it into my post. Pretty amazing that after all was said and done, they hadn't even lost 50% post BF. hdmet, you are obviously wrong, but I would actually say I think MANY people here have been assuming a very different reality as well. FTP was not totally decimated by BF like AP/UB was and was worth a lot of money and had a huge player base on 6/28. Now on 8/7 they are worth some amount less and their liabilities are quite large, so it is quite possible that the latter over weighs the former. Claims that FTP has just small value aside from liabilities, are just false, and that is all I was showing with the betsafe example.

The bolded isn't true either. FTPs growth had stalled. The last traffic report that mentioned their year over year numbers had them down 3% from 2010 to 2011.

http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekl...r=2011&week=14

And before you demoralise Harry into some incandescent monkeytilt ragefest with your patronising "stick to what you're good at" speech, think about whether it's good for the cause. Harry stood up at the AGCC's hearing and protested about the unfairness. Where were you?

Sounds like you think that FTP can recover somewhat if their wounds are not deeper than we can guess, and if most of several situations (investors) fall into place quickly. Sounds reasonable enough to me! Not good odds, but not impossible!