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FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP) FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)
View Poll Results: Do you want the AGCC to regulate the new FTP?
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05-13-2012 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesright
They also stop others buying the software and also marketing to the database of FTP players.

Because of the leverage of the sitaution they can probably buy FTP, pay back the players, for a price that is probably cheaper than they would have settled with the DOJ for
+ own the two biggest brands in the poker industry, which did cater to two different sets of players, with the funds to promote both heavily, as well as having the two biggest known brands in the US with the DOJ on-side (if not even giving their blessing that is rumoured) for if/when the US market is re-opened.

Plus the fact that people talk about how "little" FTP made before - Pokerstars know what they're doing, and have run Pokerstars very profitably for many years - they won't jizz money up the wall or on ridiculous dividends like previous FTP did - so they'll run it as profitably as can be, and that would be very.
05-13-2012 , 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesright
There would be a ton of benefits.

The main one being they now have leverage over the DOJ.

The DOJ wants the FTP mess to go away.

Nobody in their right mind would buy FTP and agree to pay back the players.

Because there is no value in FTP, PS are willing to do the deal to make all the problems go away.

They also stop others buying the software and also marketing to the database of FTP players.

Because of the leverage of the sitaution they can probably buy FTP, pay back the players, for a price that is probably cheaper than they would have settled with the DOJ for
I don't think buying FTP would give PS any leverage over DOJ (I can't imagine it) and it would have little or no impact on the settlement of PS's other problems. PS's continuing to do business in the US after being warned by DOJ/FBI not to do so, probably means that current management will never be allowed to operate independently in the US.
05-13-2012 , 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesright
There would be a ton of benefits.

The main one being they now have leverage over the DOJ.

The DOJ wants the FTP mess to go away.

Nobody in their right mind would buy FTP and agree to pay back the players.

Because there is no value in FTP, PS are willing to do the deal to make all the problems go away.

They also stop others buying the software and also marketing to the database of FTP players.

Because of the leverage of the sitaution they can probably buy FTP, pay back the players, for a price that is probably cheaper than they would have settled with the DOJ for
Sorry, but you're mischaracterizing this. PS cannot actually buy FTP without DOJ agreement and permission. So no, a PS purchase of FTP doesn't given PS any "leverage over DOJ". Frankly, there is no one and nothing on the planet that has leverage over DOJ other than the President of the United States, and certain congressional committees.

The rest of your reasoning on why PS would want to buy FTP carries some logic (and is all stuff we hashed out here two weeks ago...)
But no, nobody in the poker world has any leverage over DOJ with regard to the present situation whatsoever.
05-13-2012 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesright
But thats not the point.

Some are defending the FTP pros and their behaviour.

Even if they didn't know then.......

They know NOW...... and have known for months they have recieved stolen player money.

This is what gauls me about Daniel Negreanu's rant against Howard and Jesus where he says that keeping quiet is the same as supporting Bitar.

So what about all the Pros who have kept quiet?

Only Tom Dwan has offered to do the right thing.

The rest are just "weasels" as they have hid away and said nothing.

They can claim their lawyers told them to keep quiet but its just nonsense to hide the fact they don't give a flying **** about the players stolen money.

There is a lot they could have said without any self incrimination.

Also those claiming they didnt know what was going on might be wide of the mark.

While its not been proven they did know its also possible that some or all did know the situation?

The way PA sold of his whole balance is suspicious..... and then acts surprised when he cant get paid because the recipients don't think the money was "real"

If pokerstars or any major poker site offers any of these "pros" a sponsorship they are really stupid.
They did not steaL money and nor should they return the money. They were issued dividends in good faith and/or paid to represent the company.

The persons you want to go after are the ones who approved the dividends. What they did was illegal and they can be held accountable in a court of law.

Those who were sponsored pros, well its like a hired employee, only they got paided alot more. I would be surprised if Tom Dwan did anything.
05-13-2012 , 09:48 PM
Someone should email Ifrah and get the real scoop.

Last edited by markksman; 05-13-2012 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Also him for market price on lobster
05-13-2012 , 09:55 PM
By the way I disagree with every last one of you who say the pros should pay back the money they earned for their promotional work. Should NBC and the Travel Channel and Espn pay back advertising fees? What about Dundler-Mifflin providing paper products and printers should they return the money? How about anyone who got rakeback or special prizes or benefits? All of these were obtained above board through legal transactions. I realize there are probably few circle pairs that overlap less than those who understand how businesses work and those who like to play poker but be serious.
05-13-2012 , 09:57 PM
Quote:
Those who were sponsored pros, well its like a hired employee, only they got paided alot more. I would be surprised if Tom Dwan did anything.
I look at Tom Dwan and Galfond the worst of the bunch of so called employees. If they knew nothing why offer their own cash When saying Ill put up this much of my money that Full Tilt is good. If they knew nothing they should have kept their mouths shut. Also I have yet to see them post that money????

If I owned Pokerstars I wouldny buy Full Tilt at all. It just makes me the new bad guy not honoring the deposits
05-13-2012 , 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondogarage
Sorry, but you're mischaracterizing this. PS cannot actually buy FTP without DOJ agreement and permission. So no, a PS purchase of FTP doesn't given PS any "leverage over DOJ". Frankly, there is no one and nothing on the planet that has leverage over DOJ other than the President of the United States, and certain congressional committees.

The rest of your reasoning on why PS would want to buy FTP carries some logic (and is all stuff we hashed out here two weeks ago...)
But no, nobody in the poker world has any leverage over DOJ with regard to the present situation whatsoever.
You are 100% right. The DOJ have their own motivations most which are not currently clear. Things like seeing the FTP brand be functioning is certainly nowhere on their list. It may happen as s means to an end but they could care less if FTP ever comes back and in fact would likely prefer it stay gone for good.

If the DOJ could get most us players money back and FTP just dies and row gets nothing back I think they would be okay with that in principle.

People just need to realize that in the scheme of things the DOJ has no interest in FTP being reborn. If they can get enough of what they want they might trade it but right now they hold all the cards. No other governments have really even stepped up so really the doj can do whatever they want.

I think some people don't believe the doj would be satisfied liquidating what they can and keeping FTP shuttered forever, but I think they would be okay with that.
05-13-2012 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badblue
They were paid with stolen money to shill for the site that was stealing it. Freerolling on our bankrolls.

Those that are still "standing up for them" are nothing but pseudo-celebrity nuthuggers.

So you are young, ignorant and wrong. Your position is completely invalid.
05-13-2012 , 10:12 PM
at what point is ftp forced into liquidation?
05-13-2012 , 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
By the way I disagree with every last one of you who say the pros should pay back the money they earned for their promotional work. Should NBC and the Travel Channel and Espn pay back advertising fees? What about Dundler-Mifflin providing paper products and printers should they return the money? How about anyone who got rakeback or special prizes or benefits? All of these were obtained above board through legal transactions. I realize there are probably few circle pairs that overlap less than those who understand how businesses work and those who like to play poker but be serious.
Well said. It has nothing to do with "getting it" or "not getting it". There are people at the top who "received" (stole) money and were behind this whole fiasco, who should clearly be held accountable. There are people at the bottom who've received money who clearly should not be held accountable. (Expecting even a random secretary or the janitor who last cleaned the FT office to return their paychecks is absolutely ridiculous.) Somewhere in between, the line needs to be drawn. I would personally draw it at the people who had no knowledge of the stuff behind the scenes and were under the impression that they were just receiving a normal paycheck (obviously it's difficult to prove who knew what, but not really relevant). If someone draws the line a little lower, that's fine and I have no issues with that. But the sentiment that anyone who's received a single cent from FT should return said cent is way off in my opinion.

Last edited by Dazarath; 05-13-2012 at 10:35 PM.
05-13-2012 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
By the way I disagree with every last one of you who say the pros should pay back the money they earned for their promotional work. Should NBC and the Travel Channel and Espn pay back advertising fees? What about Dundler-Mifflin providing paper products and printers should they return the money? How about anyone who got rakeback or special prizes or benefits? All of these were obtained above board through legal transactions. I realize there are probably few circle pairs that overlap less than those who understand how businesses work and those who like to play poker but be serious.
herp derp

Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
This is 100% wrong. Of course people can be punished for receiving stolen money and required to return it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
I would add in the us you can not keep stolen property no matter how it was obtained. FTP investors would have to return their payouts and then go after FTP themselves for the money. I don't know the laws in Ireland. But I suspect they do not allow people to keep stolen property and cash they have been given.

In case people can not understand why this is the way it is it would essentially become impossible to recover anything that is stolen if all you had to do is transfer ownership. I rob a bank and a friend of mine is outside and I hand him the money. Now the money can never be recovered?

This doesn't have to do with ponzi scheme clawbacks it has to do with being in possession of stolen goods, which in the US is a crime. That you know they are stolen or not is irrelevant.

If you buy an iPad on Craigslist and later the police show up at your door telling you it is stolen you will have to give it up and you will receive no compensation. If an ATM machine starts spitting out money and you keep it they will take it back.

I am not sure why players do not have lawsuits filed on all FTP owners, shareholders and potential shareholders at this point. You guys should want to force yourself into the process so you have a say in the settlement. As it stands players are not a major factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
It doesn't matter. They received stolen money and they can be made to give it back. It was not like Full Tilt was making money and a legitimate distribution took place. All of the money disbursed was stolen and as such they have no legal claim to it.

Sometimes this thread does my head in with the basic ignorance of law and business so many seem to have here.... No wonder why I think most of you will never see your money back... You are being taken advantage of by peple who are at least mildly competent and you are totally outmatched.

It is distressing that I don't see much from the players who have lost money who seem to have an understanding and sense for what is really going on and what really should be being done about it. All I see are people making excuses for those people who actually have your stolen money and people wringing their hands that they can't get it back. It is absurd. I am starting to lose my sympathy just because some of the responses here are so absurdly ridiculous in their naivety that I almost feel like people deserve to have had their money stolen if they really believe some of the things they are saying.

I will try to sum up this current issue... You can't steal money with a ponzi scheme and then just distribute it to "shareholders" or "owners" and then keep it scott free. That is not how it works at all. All that money is subject to being returned. It is the proceeds of a crime. I do not know how to explain it any more simpler than that. I am not sure where some of you get the idea that the money given to the shareholders is magically protected.

Do you know how easy fraud would be if that were the case? Bernie Madoff could have just distributed all his monies to his friends and family and never had anything captured back. It is a fundamental lack of understand of how things work that is tilting me off here, and since I do not have any vested interest in it, it bothers me more that seemingly few if any people here have properly educated themselves in regards to this situation. Instead we continue to see people sitting on their hands feeling bad for themselves waiting for the magic tooth fairy to return their monies.

Here is a tip.. Organize... Get representation.. Put Full Tilt on notice. Put their owners on notice. Put ALL their shareholders on notice. Get the effing money back... or at least put enough pressure on them that you are a freaking factor in all of this. This keeps blowing my mind. Seriously you guys are congratulating each other for speculating that the money paid out in dividends is safe from being returned. THAT IS WRONG, WRONG WRONG. But i guess if you admitted it you might actually have to do something instead of just sitting here waiting for Tapei the Toothfairy to pay your money.

Have I said how much you all are tilting me with this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
This is not correct. Paying out stolen money as dividends is not some kind of magical way to launder stolen money. It does not work that way.

People act like because their stolen money was illegally distributed as dividends they can't get it back. That is ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
Apparently a lot of them do. It is really weird. Many/most of them don't even realize they were robbed.

This is of course worse news as tapei Wont pay anything for a business that loses 50-100 million dollars a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
People who stole your money have had six months to spend it and further hide it. Do you really think this third party pipe dream is more likely than if the players went after the money right after bf?

At least there was a chance then to track down some of the money. Now people seemingly think their only chance is for some convicted felon French angel might make everyone whole because he is a nice guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
How many businesses have you owned? How many have you bought and sold? I have owned a lot of businesses. Hundred million dollar businesses at that. You are a poker player who got robbed by some crooks and thinks that a poker player who makes 5 million dollars a year is some kind of super successful person.
05-13-2012 , 10:41 PM
edit
05-13-2012 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aggo
herp derp
hahaha!
05-13-2012 , 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
So you are young, ignorant and wrong. Your position is completely invalid.
You're 0 for 3. I said nothing about the legality, although I think even that depends on where exactly the money was scooped from. I think it was one big pot, so it can definitely be argued that they were paid directly from stolen funds.

I think it is morally wrong to keep money that you know was stolen, especially when you were paid that money to encourage people to sign up to be stolen from.

The janitors are obviously much less culpable than someone like Jenn Harmon. Also I'm pretty sure she was a part owner?

Levels of culpability:

1. Owners who knew what was up
2. Owners who didn't know what was up
3. People who were "loaned" ridiculous amounts of our money and who were somehow able to withdraw it before the site was closed.
4. Employees who authorized "loans", who mismanaged the accounting, and who lied about the state of the site.
5. People who were paid absurd amounts of our money to shill for the site and who traveled the world freerolling courtesy of our bankrolls.
6. Grunt employees who just kept things running.

I draw the line of hate between categories 5 and 6.

The ****ing csr's and whoever ran the full tilt store can go suck a dick as well though.
05-13-2012 , 11:49 PM
sick multi quote aggo
05-13-2012 , 11:55 PM
so missed this thread .................. or did I ?

when will this sheeeeeeeeeeet ever end

almost hope to hear that it's all over so i can fnally move on .... returned stolen $$$'s or not ....... **** the doj and all the ftp dickheads
05-14-2012 , 12:16 AM
Dear god. It seems there are people who actually come here still to do nothing but complain or troll.

I can see the e-jousts are back in full futile effect as well. As much as I love what the internet and this forum can bring this thread has to represent some of the lowest lifeforms on earth. I pray for all of us, and may god have mercy on our souls. Or something. Oh wtf am I saying this has killed my ability to feel emotion. BRING BACK MY MANIES YOU SAD INCOMPETENT TOADS.

/rant
05-14-2012 , 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneonth3run
Dear god. It seems there are people who actually come here still to do nothing but complain or troll.

I can see the e-jousts are back in full futile effect as well. As much as I love what the internet and this forum can bring this thread has to represent some of the lowest lifeforms on earth. I pray for all of us, and may god have mercy on our souls. Or something. Oh wtf am I saying this has killed my ability to feel emotion. BRING BACK MY MANIES YOU SAD INCOMPETENT TOADS.

/rant
I'm sorrry
05-14-2012 , 09:09 AM
Here's an article that seems to support the "PS buys FTP assets and gets a "clean" bill of health to partner with a big US casino operator to enter the American market" theory:

Here's an article to look at, I'm not sure it adds anything but summarizes a lot:
http://www.lse.co.uk/FinanceNews.asp...rs_with_a_past
05-14-2012 , 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by banseizurefrogs
at what point is ftp forced into liquidation?
IDK of course, but earlier in this thread there was talk that if deals for purchase fell thru then BR was the next step, but who knows for sure WTF is going on now if anything!
05-14-2012 , 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gioco
Here's an article that seems to support the "PS buys FTP assets and gets a "clean" bill of health to partner with a big US casino operator to enter the American market" theory:

Here's an article to look at, I'm not sure it adds anything but summarizes a lot:
http://www.lse.co.uk/FinanceNews.asp...rs_with_a_past
What suspect is more likely is that PS will be allowed to "license" their software to a US based organization to start. That way PS is "punished" by not being able to enter the market, yet they can make some money. The games will be intra-state at first. Over time, I expect that the US will allow players from different state "skins" play together like the Merge network.

The only way PS gets back in the US is by selling out to an existing US gaming company. Nobody has access to that kind of cash at the moment.
05-14-2012 , 10:44 AM
The first article link seems to be incomplete, this one has the whole article:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/0...e=economicNews
05-14-2012 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lozen
I look at Tom Dwan and Galfond the worst of the bunch of so called employees. If they knew nothing why offer their own cash When saying Ill put up this much of my money that Full Tilt is good. If they knew nothing they should have kept their mouths shut. Also I have yet to see them post that money????

If I owned Pokerstars I wouldny buy Full Tilt at all. It just makes me the new bad guy not honoring the deposits
It's so tilting that people think Galfond worked for FTP. He wasn't a sponsored pro on FTP. I still don't know why PG made that statement when he has no affiliation with FTP.
05-14-2012 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKongGrinder
It's so tilting that people think Galfond worked for FTP. He wasn't a sponsored pro on FTP. I still don't know why PG made that statement when he has no affiliation with FTP.
Never knew that always thought he was a sponsored pro?

      
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