redoak how is it that the main event winner was the product of suckouts but not the guy who finished 17th

both were likely more suckout based than skill based

i totally get where you're coming from but i think it's a little arbitrary where you draw the line - at some point bracelets need to matter because unless we have actual EV data of chips, we're not going to have anything other than results to determine POY

In my opinion, your system's flaws are less desirable than the flaws currently present in the existing system. More importantly; if your system concludes that a bracelet winner actually didn't win a bracelet "after scaling" and a player that won zero bracelets actually won 3 bracelets "after scaling", there was way too much "math" used to square that circle!

The POY is set up by the organisers to maximise the number of entrants all chasing points to win the POY title, so it is no longer anything to do about who is the best overall player.

If a fair and accurate scoring system were introduced, it would be to have a minimum of 20 events, and use the average finishing position percentage, plus bonus points for final tabling and winning, and points to reflect field size and buy in.

So 100 player $10K entry may give 10 points for the small field size, and 100 points for the buy in.

1000 player $1K entry may give 100 points for the field size and 10 points for the buy in.

maybe keep the system as is, install a minimum of events like 20 and then divide by total bullets (although not to the point where people avoid playing because it could be punitive)

this way it's still EV for POY races to mass enter if you're cashing but if you fire 2-3 bullets into an event and miss then that'll slightly hurt you - this prevents someone from just spraying and praying yet also prevents someone from just sitting it out if they get a big lead early

DNegs busted. Leads by 216.91. Looks like as long as Deeb and/or Campbell don't finish top 9 he takes down POY....

That was my quick math/analysis. Could be wrong.

I really don’t think you want a system that actively discourages players from entering additional events once they have a handful of strong results. Any system that divides your score by entries is going to do that.

However, I also think that once you have a number of strong results, your ranking shouldn’t be determined by how many more times you can mincash. That’s the big problem with the WSOP POYnow; it awards non-final table cashes too much.

I think Daniel’s solution of just counting a player’s top 10-12 results is a decent solution. It doesn’t discourage entries because you can never lose points by entering more events. And you always do have to potential to gain by entering more. But once you have enough good results, you only continue to gain if you finish really deep in a tournament.

Not unfair, because WSOP is a Vegas event. Just like if these guys were competing for WSOPE Player of the Year in the tundra right now, nothing wrong with that. Extending the WSOP POY to include these events is what is ridiculous. These guys have to dedicate over 1/6th of their year, in two places thousands of miles apart, for one 'series'

yeah i mean i wouldn't want something as drastic as that, maybe use the points like a virtual currency, you don't run out, but each time you enter an event, the amount of your points deducted would be 1/5th the point reeward for min cashing

obviously wouldn't want to discourage people from entering in as many as they can, but right now we're literally getting people regging for 3 events at the same time and walking back and forth shoving pre or folding with the idea that in one of those they'll build up a nice stack - if there were a penalty for each entry, even if it's a nominal amount, that would help encourage them to focus on quality rather than the shove/rebuy mode they adopt

I have been following DN's VLOG from WSOPE2019 in Rozvadov since day 1. There was a positive feedback from everyone in the comments and by the 2nd week it looked like he was gonna finish 1st.

But one thing struck me odd: he was just throwing money away with the dumbest possible hands. He made it look like the more buy-ins he played, the better it was for his POTY-standing. The entire time he didn't make one final table and nowhere close to winning a tournament.

Going towards the end he started talking on how he misunderstood the entire system and it was better for him to focus on the first bullet instead of the rebuy. All the while losing. He had a stack of 200K at one moment and lost it on 2 hands while there were plenty chances to bag for day 2.

Last night he bagged 234K for day 2 ( today ). He lost 130 on 1 hand and on his last hand he lost 130K on the hand K4 pre-flop all-in. KING FOUR!!!

My question to you guys, if anyone has been following him in Rozvadov, is Do you think Daniel tanked this tournament on purpose just to grab hold of the money that people invested in him? Let's say a total of 1.5 million worth of packages were bought and he throws away 225K, using POTY-bullshit as a diversion, leaves him with a nice 1.3 million by doing nothing. Did he outplay everyone who was invested in his cause BUT the players he should have been playing against? What are your thoughts? Thanks

You really don't understand buying/selling pieces. What makes you think he raised/collected $1.5 million? If I recall he wanted to sell 50% at zero markup. If he did raise $1.5 million, that assumes $3 million in total buy-ins. Now; $3 million in total buy-ins for WSOPE is (although possible) highly unlikely for 15 events. Any monies collected and not used for buy-ins at the stated percentage would be returned. Example; DNegs had something in the ballpark of 300k of buy-ins throughout WSOPE, that means any monies raised over and above $150k would be returned. If he raised more than 150k and doesn't return the excess, I'm sure we would hear about it in short order.

Yes, I agree. 12 seems like a good number to limit scores. No need to reduce points if multiple bullets fired. There would be virtually no POY gain to be had if more than 1 bullet fired if that was the case. A limit of 12 is all you need to reduce the problem rebuys present.

Our method has Sammartino #1 now with Deeb #2 and Negreanu #3. If Deeb gets top 18 in the last event he would overtake Sammartino. Deeb is 6th with 51 left.

What do you win for POY?

Deeb still in with 40 left.

Got a feeling Dnegs is going to piss 200k up the wall chasing for nothing now. Ouch

A trophy

Your blown up ugly mug hung up on the wall at the Rio.

"Im the one and only bomb pot!" baaamp baaam baaaamp baa baaabaaaaump baaamp baaam baaaamp baa baaabaaaaump "I thought it was fine" baaamp baaam baaaamp baa baaabaaaaump "yeeaaaaaaahhhh buddy!" baaamp baaam baaaamp baa baaabaaaaump "lot of action" bbbrrrr brrrrrill brrrump!

Actually it is entirely possible he could have oversold his package, and played his kamikaze rebuy to lose out on big cashes, and avoid repaying backers, but get enough points towards the POY.

Where does Deeb need to finish to beat DNegs?

Current standings
DNegs 3971.54
Campbell 3857.97
Deeb 3710.64

WSOPE PoY

According to the WSOPE Point Calculator
Event 15 550 Colossus with 2738 total entries

RANK POINTS
1st 1033
2nd 517
3rd 465
4th 413
5th 388
6th 362
7th 310
8th 284
9th 258
next 20% 207
next 30% 103
next 50% 52

Based on that, Deeb needs to win 6th place or better in order to take PoY. DNegs received some points for cashing. I think it was 52.

This doesn't change your point, but just to clarify for Rolls-Royce, this is nothing like what he was suggesting, which made absolutely no sense.

What's the line on DNegs being gracious in defeat if Deeb beats him? Hopefully my man Doug Polk zings him with a nice video on DNegs' spewing at all costs in WSOPE.

He's trailing by approximately 261 so he needs to win 1033? (Deeb in 3rd right now with 32 left)

Depends on how you define "oversold." Prior to selling pieces; he estimated how much he anticipated re-buying in, those that bought pieces knew full well in advance the number of bullets he was planning on firing in each event. In fact; he estimated firing multiple bullets in some events where he only ended up firing a single bullet in each of them - and people are getting some money back to account for that. In addition; during Vegas WSOP he fired more bullets (had more buy-ins) in the high-roller events than he estimated/anticipated: he did not go back to "raise more funds", he simply paid for that himself. I get it; you don't like the guy, he's not my favorite player either, but you're trying a bit too hard to find an angle to criticize the guy.

People had a few too many wine coolers while watching the producers ITT

Daniel's play record is public, he could only pull this off if backers were fully anonymous and couldn't see who else had bought and how much. That may have occurred, I don't know the details, but it'd be a counter intuitive move so he lacks the motive.

His celebrity brand is worth millions, far more than any one off scheme like this. In fact, that's why he's so dead set on winning POY because it increases his brand value.

He made exponentially more income from endorsements and spokesmanships than from actually playing poker. This kind of scam would only make sense for someone without a multi million dollar brand.

I think Daniel knew what he was doing today and squeeked into the "next 30% category" to secure 103 points, then he shoved the K4s from the SB with ~11bb, which is more than standard, since he knew he couldn't fold through to the next points jump.

This means Deeb needs 5th place or better to win POY.

I actually feel that Sammartino deserves it more than either Deeb or DNegs, but if I had to choose a more popular winner it is obviously Daniel.

How bad must he have felt when Deeb got it all in with JTs vs QQ and sucked out with runner-runner flush. After the flop Daniel was 95% to win the POY. Ugh!

Still, with around 22 players left as I write this, he's got to still be like 70/30 to win it, but I wouldn't put it past Deeb to sun-run this thing...a few minutes later Deeb wins another big pot and is now 3/18 probably making it a coin-flip for the POY race...