I realize the importance of this issue and subsequent discussion. But, Gaming has the ball now. We all know it. Tab or the Borgata can't/won't be commenting until Gaming releases a statement. We all know that too. I don't think Tab should be expected to stop posting on his twitter or any account because he's not talking about this particular issue. This thread has been entertaining, but it is also difficult to follow. It seems many players know how to fix this issue. My sense is however, that most of us don't really understand the nuisances of running a poker room, or for that matter, a large turn out tournament. To me, it's sufficient that the Borgata will do what it can to ensure the integrity of the game. The ultimate responsibility for cheaters is with the cheaters. The Borgata susceptibility to possible cheating in this tournament is easy to comprehend..... Lots of money equals scum bag attention. Tab/The Borgata did their job and reported the infractions. Hopefully the thread calms down a little so that real information regarding the progress of the investigation and how the Borgata will deal with innocent deep runners can be followed.

Yea the "texas poker game" is laughable..do you see that hand??!?!?

but still, the genius is in the RFID spots and the software tracking the whole tourney.. The market is definitely ripe for this to take off, considering this Borgata debacle ...this was an Italian company, I wonder any USA patents?

I totally get the sentiment that a lot of players are going to have if forced to switch to something electronic. I just don't know what other practical way casinos can run 5000 player tournaments. It solves a lot of problems and the drawbacks are pretty thin. No need to switch to this for tournaments that you can properly staff and administrate.

I also played with Men the Master the day after the story broke in the $500 HORSE event, he was laughing it up and talking about how he came in 28th and was the last one to get paid.

Definitely Alan Leghorn
It helps to read his posts in the voice of foghorn leghorn

THIS +1

I agree with the second sentence, and I think it's impossible to stop all cheating 100%. But I vehemently disagree with the first sentence. Looking into changes, improvements, etc is very important. To say it's on cheaters to stop cheating - that's never going to happen. There are scumbags who will exploit any edge they can find and they will live outside the rules. It's on TD's, casinos, and the poker community (ie all of us) to push for improvements in security to try to minimize cheating.

Sorry, but I don't agree. The Borgata raised the bar when they over extended their ability of secure oversight. They did not have the necessary staff to run this event in a way to protect the players. They were short staff in every area, they waited way to long before suspending play, they had prior knowledge of possible issues and waited till the event dropped hundreds of players before acting. Hoping that maybe the problem would go away. Remember poker at the Borgata was shut down before for internal corruption. The state is going to come down hard.

Screw me once shame on you screw me twice shame on me

I agree completely and feel the same.....Ohhh, and I cant play online in America. FML

I don't understand when tables break why floor and dealer can't count, verify, and bag chips before sending players to the new tables. The floor is already present to dish out the seat cards, this whole process would take 2 min tops. Player arrives at new table, dealer opens bag verifies chips and we proceed. As many have pointed out the times to do this are during table break and end of night bag and tag.

+1
I'm not trying to heap a bunch of judgment on the Borg staff here, but it is rather obvious that some crazy looking chips were in play on Day 2 and it was brought up at tournament tables. The fact that it was not immediately brought to the attention of the TD so that the event came to a screeching halt shows, AT BEST, a huge issue with communication among the event staff. There are other controls that should have been in place:

- They should have checked the chip counts at every day's bag and tag.
- They should have escorted table changes directly to their new tables and enforced the rule that chips must remain in a rack.

I suspect that the problem was:
too many break-in inexperienced dealers+ too few experienced floors+ too many tables not under surveillance= prime targets for fraud.

And that puts it in the Borg's lap. They should not court fields of this size if it means exposing the event to easy cons. At the very least, other TD's should take note and ensure a lot of controls are set in place to protect their own future events.

I've only played like three tourneys at the Borgata, but one of them was similar to this one a couple of years ago. It was the big kick-off event for their Fall Poker Open and the experience with dealers was absolutely the worst I've ever seen. The whole thing was a fiasco. I see a lot of people complimenting Tab a lot; I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but it seems that he hasn't learned from past mistakes with these huge events, and those should be the events that he focuses a lot of attention on because I'm sure logistically, he can delegate the weekly tournaments, etc. fairly easily.

I also think the point that real chips may have been stolen is important to consider and I'm sure they are. 1M extra chips doesn't automatically mean 1M in fakes. It could be 2M in fakes and 1M in real ones stolen to sneak into stacks in other events. This is why we deserve some basic facts from Borgata and NJDGE. By now they should have stated how many chips were in play, how many were real, how many were fake and what steps they are taking to secure future events. That and a rough timeline to reach prize money and refund decisions. Will it be days, weeks or months? I busted quickly in Event 1 and don't feel like I must get a refund as I wasn't directly impacted, though I'd selfishly like one. I do feel entitled to more info than we've gotten as both an Event 1 player and one who may play future events.

Do they legally owe us that info? No. Would it be good customer service and much deserved? Yes.

If this is your real stance for even a $560.00 tourney then there should certainly not be a main event for 10 grand. You don't think major cheating goes on there?

They should have checked the chip counts at every day's bag and tag.
- They should have escorted table changes directly to their new tables and enforced the rule that chips must remain in a rack.

LOL@this Chips do have to remain in site. Let me ask you what tourney with more then 200 people have you played anywhere in the world where everyone moved was escorted to a table?

At the very least, other TD's should take note and ensure a lot of controls are set in place to protect their own future events

Agreed

it would take heaps of bags every tournament to do this. someone would be needed to collect the bags and dispose of them(i know sounds like such a tiny problem but imagine 25,000 thick plastic bags). 2 minutes is a very small number. it takes 2 minutes to count some stacks for the floor and dealers and to have to do this all day over and over would be impossible. the floors can barely handle breaking tables as it is now. i played 6, 7, 8, 9 handed at all different times throughout the day and at times for an entire level.

you expect these dealers to handle counting 10 stacks, bagging them, verifying people write the correct amount, handing out scissors at the next table, verifying license and borgata card, waiting for every dope to stack their chips and then count another time to verify it matches the bag, all while not missing a hand or slowing down the rest of the table? thousands of times over the course of the day?

it may work for the end of the day but even for 1a there were 200 people with lots of chips and big stacks. we already had to wait around for another 30 minutes while they colored up and tried to figure out who the day chip leader was.

That's the part that makes this fall squarely on Borgata as a responsible party. This wasn't some elaborate plan. This was simply crooks understanding how chaotic this tournament was going to be and doing a really simple con. They counterfeited tournament chips and they didn't even try to do a good job at it. These weren't top notch counterfeits that needed to be weighed and tested in a lab to discover. These were obvious to the eye fakes.

If the crooks had monitored and scouted the casino for months, found minute, intricate opportunities to introduce the chips using diversions and a team member blocking the view of the camera, and then put in nearly identical counterfeits that nobody could spot that would be one thing. But this wasn't Ocean's Eleven. This wasn't some huge international operation. This was like spray painting chips in your garage and adding them from you pocket to your stack level.

If you're not able to catch something as lackadaisical as that you obviously have gigantic flaws in your tournament security and structure. IMO the reason that it took until the final 27 to figure out there was a problem was because that was the first opportunity to get an accurate count of the chips in play and discover the discrepancy. I don't think a single employee at Borgata knew with 100% certainty what chipsets they had in play.

Sounds to me like these massive field events are going to be under huge scrutiny when next they are run.

I've tried to get through this thread and I'm sure I've missed it, but have they admitted to tables not being "under surveillance"?

I've played in Event Center events before and wondered how well the tables were seen by whatever cameras are there. I can't imagine they have a 1:1 ratio in that temporary setup, though I'd find it hard to believe that the State would be OK with games not being seen on camera at all, but maybe I'm wrong?

Way too complicated to ever take place. A simpler way would be to have some special metal in the chips. All entrances have detector that alarms is someone leaves with any chips. Also chips should have a design built into both sides that can't be easily duplicated

With some of these fixes you guys are proposing, wouldn't we just be replacing one exploitable thing for another? Electronics can always be exploited. Any time there is significant money involved people will find a way to manipulate the odds in their favor.

Clueless post. So the player just adds chips coming back from a break. This procedure solves nothing and adds a tremendous amount of time.

I posted the NV requirements earlier in the thread somewhere, but it pretty much takes 3 cameras to cover 1 table. I don't know if thay have granted waivers in the past for events like the WSOP in Nevada or not, but it's a sure bet if they have in the past, they won't after this fiasco.

I think it was just a year or two ago that Palm Beach WSOP circuit made headlines with $1mil guarantee $500 + buyin tourney. That seemed over the top at the time. But a $2mil guarantee with $500 + buyin is just nuts...and with just three day ones? Borgata gambled they could pull it off with inexperienced dealers and apparently not-so-great security measures. They almost did it, but they lost. That's poker folks.

It is interesting to note that I have played at a lot of tournaments and I the only tournaments that I have played at that verified chips at the end of the day was HPT tournaments and a local Horseshoe tournament. I remembered the first time they did this I thought what a PIA to have to wait until the floor person verified my chips (and I still do), the last thing players want is after 12 plus hours of play to have to wait while our chips are being verified. Now I fear this might now be the norm. If all chips are verified after day 1, 2 etc, then the house would know immediately if there are missing chips and/or more chips in play then the number of registered players. This is a sad commentary about poker, when things like this happen it ruins it for us all. Hopefully the cameras will catch the scumbag(s).

All that can be expected of the Borgata, Bellagio, Venetian or anywhere else is an "industry standard" to table breaks and nightly counts. A room has a fiduciary responsibility to have standards to protect the game and all the good rooms have them. Gaming will let us know if the Borgata was deficient but, I don't think they were. Yet again, I wasn't there.

We all have ideas... different ones it seems. I have no doubt that this problem has the attention of the Borgata and every other room in the country. I also have no doubt that Gaming won't be shy in their analysis

There is no way that a floor can stop someone from adding a couple of chips here and there. The best that can be expected is that all rooms protect the integrity of their chips and account for discrepancies. To me, at least that was done. You can't expect such a large tournament to run like clock work. Temp dealers stink. But, the alternative is capped fields and smaller payout's. Everyone can't be made happy.