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Old 01-20-2014, 09:47 PM   #1251
Justsayin1
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by TurboLover View Post
heard dealer/s may be involved
If dealers were involved then Borgata poker again would be shut down for inside corruption as it was a few years ago. Book making, prostitution, loan sharking.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:57 PM   #1252
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Glad I just realized Parx is the same distance as Borgata.. looks like a switch might be happening
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:04 PM   #1253
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Did anyone notice if they were using a different chip set for tournament 2 after they shut down #1?
13:69E-1.1 Gaming chips (general rules)
(f) A casino licensee shall remove a set of gaming chips in use from active play whenever it has reason to believe the casino or casino simulcasting facility has accepted counterfeit chips or whenever any other impropriety or defect in the utilization of that set of chips makes removal of the chips in active use necessary or whenever the Division so directs. An approved back-up set of value chips or non-value chips shall be placed into active play whenever an active set is removed.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/njcode/ Title 13 Ch 69

I'm guessing the fact that they didn't stop the game, bag and tag each players chips, and replace them with the backup set That they are required by law to have will earn the Borgata a hefty fine.

I also find it funny the NCV chips they use follow the same color code as New Jersey requires for value chips. And the regs specify the colors, so I would think i could make a good match to the grey on the old ones.
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:07 PM   #1254
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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The following is from the DGE website:

Monitoring Casino Operations: DGE state investigators sit in little booths inside Atlantic City casinos and do crossword puzzles all day.

FYP
.
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:34 PM   #1255
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by anemoney View Post
Anyone saying that all non cashers should be paid is delusional. That will never happen and to request money back when you busted beforehand is just LOL.

How about coming up with a reasonable solution and letting borgata figure out their end. did it suck......yes! Was their cheating.....yes! Will most of you go back......yes.
There is nothing delusional about it. NJ state gaming commission has declared the tourney canceled. Unless borgata is lookin for massive class action law suit ( there will be lots of law firms ready to help 4300+ players who were busted out before cashing ) Borgata will be more then happy to refund IMHO .(it's good for the business)
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:38 PM   #1256
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by layemdown View Post

Tab and the Borgata run one of the best tournaments in the country...
Questionable at this point.
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:38 PM   #1257
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by riverph7 View Post
There is nothing delusional about it. NJ state gaming commission has declared the tourney canceled. Unless borgata is lookin for massive class action law suit ( there will be lots of law firms ready to help 4300+ players who were busted out before cashing ) they will refund IMHO .
Realistically they very well may refund, just because of the PR aspect. Would some people get together and try to sue them? Yes, probably. Out of 4,000+ that didn't cash, I'm sure some subset would try. I doubt they'd get very far, though.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:01 PM   #1258
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by pninwin View Post
Yup. I was talking to Tad in the card room today and he said almost the exact same thing.... "Whatever happens, this changes everything for future tournaments"
If you ever want to get his attention, you will do better by calling him "Tab," and not "Tad."
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:29 PM   #1259
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

All of you need to calm down and let them do their investigation. I see people critizing them for not making another statement. What statement do you expect from them? Do you really think they are going to give a resolution to your money now? They already stated the tourney has been compromised. The next statement you will hear from them is when they make ALL of the arrests and I have a feeling that statement will be sooner then later. I'm sure they don't want to release any information about the investigation until it's complete. You don't want them to compromise the investigation too, do you?

First off, they have hours upon hours of footage to view. Just think of how many tables they had running throughout the event. Days 1A, 1B, 1C, and 2. That is thousands of hours of footage. It's like finding a needle in a haystack. Most of you have never worked those cameras and have no clue how difficult it is catching someone doing something like this. These cameras are amazing, they can read the serial number off a hundred bill from across the room ONLY if you are actively controlling the camera. These camera's are set at a specific distance to get the best views of the cards, chip stacks, and players as possible. Because of the way they are set they won't be able to see the culprits do the small movements necessary to add chips to their stacks. You can zoom in on certain sections of the cameras when they are not being controlled but you can't "enhance" the view like in a movie.

There are ways to narrow your search though. Lets take the Harrah's chip flushing incident. If that occurred then you can narrow your search to the players that are registered guests of Harrah's and that played in that tourney. That right there will narrow your search considerably. With ID's of several potential suspects you can then track their movements throughout the tourney, see how their demeanor is, who they talk to, what actions they take. Once they get as much info as possible on the suspects then they will bring them in for questioning and see who cracks from there. After they get everyone, THEN you will get all the information you seek.

Borgata has become what it is because it has cared about giving you the best experience. They made it their mission to become the best in AC. When it comes to poker, there is Borgata and everyone else. Do you think they are going to say screw you to everyone that has made them #1? I expect them to make this right. They rarely disappoint.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:30 PM   #1260
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
Realistically they very well may refund, just because of the PR aspect. Would some people get together and try to sue them? Yes, probably. Out of 4,000+ that didn't cash, I'm sure some subset would try. I doubt they'd get very far, though.
When something like this happens,individuals don't have to look for lawyers .!! Law firms will come looking for them
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:32 PM   #1261
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by riverph7 View Post
There is nothing delusional about it. NJ state gaming commission has declared the tourney canceled. Unless borgata is lookin for massive class action law suit ( there will be lots of law firms ready to help 4300+ players who were busted out before cashing ) Borgata will be more then happy to refund IMHO .(it's good for the business)
I would call it "thin value," but if chips were really introduced on day 2, then I don't see a case for refunding those who busted on day 1. Borgata may be able to get away with only refunding the non-rake portion too. It would be a hard legal case to make that Borgata clearly did not provide the service paid for by the rake portion, which is holding a poker tournament. As others have said, and Borgata would argue (likely correctly), they took the same precautions other tournaments do such as WSOP.

Of course, the case in a non-legal setting is clear that Borgata executed it poorly, but the laws are set up only to allow you to sue for truly negligent actions in breaking a contract. It's hard to see just how negligent Borgata was versus simply being "unlucky" if in fact all live tournaments are highly susceptible and they just happened to be the one which was targeted.

But yeah, most likely they will pay out all entry fees to those busted and chop the remaining 27 for business purposes even if they could get away with not doing all refunds "legally," or perhaps just not refunding day one busts if they are certain chips weren't introduced on day one.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:33 PM   #1262
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by SoBi88 View Post
...With this lack of oversight and understaffing...
To the lawyers in the forum, would this be considered negligence?
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:36 PM   #1263
Alan C. Lawhon
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by TurboLover View Post
heard dealer/s may be involved
If that turns out to be true, this will be the second time "insider employees" of the Borgata have been caught participating in a cheating scam. If there's any truth to this rumor, the state of New Jersey will have to come down really hard on the Borgata - up to and including the possibility of revoking their gaming license. Hopefully this is an untrue rumor, but the Borgata already has a shady record of past misdeeds involving insiders. (I wonder if the problem is that upper management simply does not pay their employees a decent wage - or people in Borgata's upper management are in bed with organized crime figures?) This could really get interesting ...
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:36 PM   #1264
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by Smiley928 View Post
All of you need to calm down and let them do their investigation. ......They made it their mission to become the best in AC. When it comes to poker, there is Borgata and everyone else. Do you think they are going to say screw you to everyone that has made them #1? I expect them to make this right. They rarely disappoint.
I am 100 % confident that Borgata will do right thing.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:38 PM   #1265
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Iso Todd terry thoughts
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:52 PM   #1266
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by Alan C. Lawhon View Post
If that turns out to be true, this will be the second time "insider employees" of the Borgata have been caught participating in a cheating scam. If there's any truth to this rumor, the state of New Jersey will have to come down really hard on the Borgata - up to and including the possibility of revoking their gaming license. Hopefully this is an untrue rumor, but the Borgata already has a shady record of past misdeeds involving insiders. (I wonder if the problem is that upper management simply does not pay their employees a decent wage - or people in Borgata's upper management are in bed with organized crime figures?) This could really get interesting ...
Easy with the drama queening. We don't know if that is true or not about the dealers. Even if it is, do you have any idea how much money the Borgata generates for New Jersey? You think they are going to revoke the gaming license over a few potential rogue dealers?

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Old 01-20-2014, 11:54 PM   #1267
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by layemdown View Post
In a nut shell:

There was more than a million more chips in play than should have been. Fake 5K chips
.....

My understanding it was a million $$ in chip VALUE not an actual million extra chips. Small point but some may be confused. If all the fake chips were $5K that means that there were an extra 200 physical chips that were slipped in. I doubt one person could carry in 200 clay chips and no one would notice. Got to be a ring of players involved, maybe with some inside help.
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:03 AM   #1268
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by LASJayhawk View Post
I think I'll go play some tournaments at the Borgata.

Somehow I feel like the chip leader already'


Add a pic of Dr Evil behind and the word "dollars" IMO
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:04 AM   #1269
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by Aoresteen View Post
My understanding it was a million $$ in chip VALUE not an actual million extra chips. Small point but some may be confused. If all the fake chips were $5K that means that there were an extra 200 physical chips that were slipped in. I doubt one person could carry in 200 clay chips and no one would notice. Got to be a ring of players involved, maybe with some inside help.
oh it wasnt a million individual chips?!?!? thanks for clearing that up.....dear god these posts are tilting
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:08 AM   #1270
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by dareyou2call View Post
oh it wasnt a million individual chips?!?!? thanks for clearing that up.....dear god these posts are tilting
In fairness to Aoresteen, he was just clarifying another poster's summary for someone who was hoping to catch up a bit. A fair number of new posters have entered this thread. The denominations of tourney chips might not be wholly obvious.

That said, I AM trying to imagine what a million physical chips would look like. I have a visual of Scrooge McDuck swimming in his pile of coins.
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:08 AM   #1271
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by ZomBParadox View Post
Add a pic of Dr Evil behind and the word "dollars" IMO
I think Men the Master is on the Borgata 100 Trillion chip
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:16 AM   #1272
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by Aoresteen View Post
My understanding it was a million $$ in chip VALUE not an actual million extra chips. Small point but some may be confused. If all the fake chips were $5K that means that there were an extra 200 physical chips that were slipped in. I doubt one person could carry in 200 clay chips and no one would notice. Got to be a ring of players involved, maybe with some inside help.
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:23 AM   #1273
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Im playing saturday in the 350+50...

wonder if I made a joke chip protector chip that said Borgata 100 Trillion if I could possibly get in any kind of trouble...

obv no one would with a brain would care, but....
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:25 AM   #1274
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by Habman View Post
To the lawyers in the forum, would this be considered negligence?
just supposing that borg was negligent (i don't think they were based on what we know so far; i also think they are the best poker room i've ever played in though i don't play live mtts), it will be really hard to recover anything. there is also a decent chance that the entrants waived away their ability to sue when they played the tourney, but we'll ignore that issue too.

the judge would probably not be sympathetic to the players since they're gambling and that's immoral. the players assume risk when they enter a tournament that someone will cheat. many judges will just assume casino poker is full of cheating. if the judge is sympathetic, then how do the plaintiffs show their monetary damages beyond their buyin? and for the final 27, could you imagine a lawyer explaining to a judge ICM v. chip-chop prize divisions? if the case gets past a judge and survives summary judgement, then the same issues still remain when dealing with a jury.

borg will settle somehow, probably buy-in refunds and chip-chop final 27. even the existence of a likely to fail class-action lawsuit will make borg look bad. it is something much better resolved by borg busting the cheaters and moving people up the pay ladder or issuing refunds that waive liability than players taking them to court.

also lawsuits take an extremely long time to resolve. finally, a lawsuit against borg is a bad idea because a successful lawsuit over this would discourage other casinos from having poker if the casino could be found tortiously liable for their players' cheating. so it would be bad for poker in the long run.

Last edited by djz; 01-21-2014 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:27 AM   #1275
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

you know when you type a dirty porn phrase into google, it stops auto complete guessing what you're going to type as to not display the filth???

try typing in men the master and see what happens...
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