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Transgender issues (formerly "Transgender/Athlete Controversy") Transgender issues (formerly "Transgender/Athlete Controversy")

03-26-2022 , 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
I'm a psychiatrist and I disagree with your first sentence. Being trans is not a mental illness as those of us who study mental illnesses understand it.

To your second sentence, of course. There are some psychotic people who have all sorts of beliefs that aren't true -- whether it's about their gender or that they are Jesus.

Also, some people are just not sure about their identity and come to figure it out over time. They might identify as trans for some time before realizing otherwise. But that's not a mental disorder.
Anyone who would seek help from a psychiatrist should have their head examined!


Last edited by lagtight; 03-26-2022 at 05:57 AM.
03-26-2022 , 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuepee
The issue is that many here put almost zero value on sport and you see an active disdain for sport and denial of any benefits it can convey as, after all 'it is not calculus'.

Resentment by some that their educational achievements might never pay near (or even a fraction of) what some athletes make is quite natural and common.

So if you hold disdain for competitive sport generally, you will not find sympathy for anyone denied a path to sport greatness.

And it is not all about greatness or winning, and is about the competition within a fair playing field. That last point is key there because if it is not a fair playing field then the competition elements (gains) are not present. Allowing prime Kaitlen Jenner (then Bruce Jenner) to transition and compete at that point against cis gals and destroy them such that they look like they have no business even being in the competition destroys all the benefits of earnest and fair competition where you can look at a 'peers' success as something to try to strive for and achieve and even if you fall short, you then still get benefits. That is gone when it Kaitlan destroying the field in a way they know they can achieve or catch up to.

There is a push on this topic to deny anything but that which we see today. So a few years back the trans women had not yet reached the top echelons for sport so the push back THEN was to deny it would ever happen, as it had not YET. "Why worry yourself'?

Power lifter Laurel Hubbard is not the sole M2F trans person to compete in an Olympics or other top echelon such events. There are numerous examples more and all M2F. There are numerous examples of younger, in prime M2F powerlifters now in those sports following in Hubbards footsteps but while much closer to their athletic prime.

So Hubbarb is allowed to go to the Olympics and push a cis gal out of her life long dream, and now after the fact society has to look to change the rules to prevent anyone like Hubbard ever competing again. What a disaster. A disaster for the Cis woman who lost her spot. For the sport itself and for Laurel who sees her accomplishment being redefined as unfair advantage (cheating) for the future.

Bad all around for everyone because we cannot have adults say to the short sighted and naive, that regardless of no participants being at that level TODAY, we must protect the athletes and sport for TOMORROW, by acknowledging that if trans women participation does grow (and it is) this is only going to be more of a problem tomorrow.

Instead we get the usual 'fingers in the ears', 'nah nah nah not listening. Just be nice and let them compete and don't offer any slippery slope reasoning to prevent it'.
I don't recall anyone (let alone many) asserting anything resembling the bolded above.

Please cite two examples. Thanks.
03-26-2022 , 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuepee
Yes but i am not aware of anyone un'gaying or de'gaying or transitioning to straight outside Laggy grabbing a few vulnerable ones and getting them to 'pray the gay away'. I think we would all agree, that is not really a thing and they are still gay even if repressed or lying to themselves.

That seems to be a significant key difference, to the transition, de-transition point, which if true, should really put more caution in any allowance for minors to transition.

SimpleRick should be posing that question to ganstaman who is a clinical psychologist (I think in this area), but due to his insult laced style and aggressive posting I doubt anyone will engage with him. That and he is asking tough questions that today's kinder society does not like to engage in.
What in the name of Ned are you babbling about with the bolded above?

Why are you so obsessed with INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting the views of not only ME, but pretty much EVERYBODY you engage here?

I find it quite tiresome.

Addendum: I have NEVER prayed with ANYONE regarding their sexual-orientation.

Last edited by lagtight; 03-26-2022 at 06:11 AM.
03-26-2022 , 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
Lmao. What a fail. I said "trans woman competing in women's sport". Yes there have been examples of non-binary people competing (don't you remember ME celebrating the Canadian Quinn's win in this very thread!) but as they are not the case of being born male and competing for the females that gets you all hot and bothered.

So yes, just one. As you put it "basically 1 of 1". So you can loltastically think you've got some 100% success ratio, because you don't know what a denominator is, but nevertheless claims that the number of trans women competing is "shocking large" is just completely obviously false for the Olympics.
Oh please Non Binary competing they still compete in Cis male or cis female. Whoop Dee Do they call themselves they or whatever. No way is that in any way similar
03-26-2022 , 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lozen
Oh please Non Binary competing they still compete in Cis male or cis female. Whoop Dee Do they call themselves they or whatever. No way is that in any way similar
What point do you think uke was making in that post?
03-26-2022 , 12:00 PM
Cuepee: "Basically 1 of 1"
Uke: Quotes Cuepee saying "Basically 1 of 1"
Cuepee: "Read the wiki article uke. It is not just one."
Uke: Uh, the others in the article are non-binary competing in the same gender as their biology. So yes 1. As you said.
Lozen, thinking he is pwning me: "no way is that in any way similar"


You two are the gift that keeps on giving.
03-26-2022 , 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
What point do you think uke was making in that post?
Im not sure what point he is making other than celebrating a woman winning at woman's competition whoopee .
03-26-2022 , 01:06 PM
03-26-2022 , 01:56 PM
Super interesting video, lozen.

I’m too young to remember the trans women she is talking about who ~40 years ago wasn’t a top 100 male but transitioned and became top 30 as a female. I would love to hear an interview with that woman too and hear why she thinks she shouldn’t have been able to play as a woman and why she thinks trans women today shouldn’t be able to compete as women.
03-26-2022 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
I don't recall anyone (let alone many) asserting anything resembling the bolded above.

Please cite two examples. Thanks.
1. Sklanky and Trolldude arguing about why there are swimming scholarships. You could clearly infer a distain for collegiant sports from that exchange.
2. Ecru offered the strange position that he thought the money wasted on high school sport should be more evenly distributed to resolve adult obesity.
3. Uke and troll have both proffered "burning down" women's sports if they don't get their way of transathlete inclusion on their terms. Uke also does not appear to believe that any high school level sport is "competitive" or "elite" enough to ban trans athletes for any reason but he has has consistently stated he believes in the value of sports participation.
4. The pictures in your and trolldolls avatars shows clear distain of physical health, let alone sport.
03-26-2022 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
What point do you think uke was making in that post?
Ganstaman, in addition to a person's subjective belief they are transgender, are there any physical, genetic, hormonal or chemical differences or evidence in a person that would support such a belief?
03-26-2022 , 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
I don't recall anyone (let alone many) asserting anything resembling the bolded above.

Please cite two examples. Thanks.
No thanks Laggy. Do your own work. I am not spending the time in search to find it to then get a 'who cares anyway'. Search E_D's post for the 'its not calculus comment'. I don't remember the second poster who said they would fine with 'just cancelling all sport if this cannot be accommodated' (my paraphrase but it was said. And there are more such comments but I would have to re-read everything to cite them and to what end?
03-26-2022 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
What in the name of Ned are you babbling about with the bolded above?

Why are you so obsessed with INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting the views of not only ME, but pretty much EVERYBODY you engage here?

I find it quite tiresome.

Addendum: I have NEVER prayed with ANYONE regarding their sexual-orientation.
Pray the gay away is mocking reply to the idea that gay people, by repenting and seeking God can cease being gay. With God's grace, charity, support and help they can stop being gay, marry and live a happy satisfied life.

Do you believe that or not?
03-26-2022 , 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lozen
Its a great clear eyed video that everyone here should watch and that i suspect few will.

Check that, most will, hoping to criticize it, but when they have no real criticisms they can forward they will pretend they did not watch it, as is the template here.

Martina speaks very clearly as to why we need to plan AHEAD and have a 'blanket rule' that does not ignore reality just because trans women are not getting the results in any given period. That coming out of her direct experience with her competing with her friend and coach and early trans women tennis competitor, Renee Richards.

the only part of that video I disagree with Martina in, is that while she is often slighted as being Transphobic she said Renne, being trans could not be slighted in the same way. I would be quite shocked if she was not being slighted in that way.
03-26-2022 , 04:05 PM
I think ganstaman is doing a great job and using the proper tact in answering SimpleRick, so great job and full credit to you.


That said I want to offer SRick a different way to consider this. That way is to ask 'who cares'? Not in a dismissive nihilistic way but more of a libertarian philosophical way.

I could certainly engage with the various homeless people i've interacted with over the years, telling them in an aggressive and confronting way that they are mentally ill, but what is my goal or end game in doing so? On this planet people will take all sorts of paths from birth to death and many of those paths you, or I may consider crazy, but it is where they want to go and what they want to do.

Now I am not saying you ignore them, if you think them crazy or needing help. You can ensure support services are there and available for those who embrace them but to aggressively attack them as crazy (even if you are sure they are) seems to me, to not be the best tact.

As you can see, I do think we need to push back and engage this topic when those accommodations start to expand out to others (tangential victims) and I do think we need to step up and give voice to the ones who are often the victims and deliberately silenced thru aggressive tactics like shaming, etc. But you can do that without attacking the trans person directly.

Anyway, not sure this point will get anywhere but I hope you ask yourself some questions about why you feel the need to label them crazy and have it admitted? What drives that?
03-26-2022 , 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
Super interesting video, lozen.

I’m too young to remember the trans women she is talking about who ~40 years ago wasn’t a top 100 male but transitioned and became top 30 as a female. I would love to hear an interview with that woman too and hear why she thinks she shouldn’t have been able to play as a woman and why she thinks trans women today shouldn’t be able to compete as women.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

"Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion.""
03-27-2022 , 03:17 AM
Like I said, it is going to come down to tennis. Too much money. Too many men who would make the top ten among women (without treatment, I'm told it's in the thousands). The most popular non team sport. Probably a combination that the "inclusion in elite sports" people cannot overcome.
03-27-2022 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
Like I said, it is going to come down to tennis. Too much money. Too many men who would make the top ten among women (without treatment, I'm told it's in the thousands). The most popular non team sport. Probably a combination that the "inclusion in elite sports" people cannot overcome.
Tennis is indeed a great example given its prominence, the amount of money, the individuality, the physicality etc. If there was a spot you'd expect trans athletes to take over it is likely here. The WTA policy requires treatment, specifically the same 10nm/mol for 12 months consensus standard a lot of organizations used, and if anything likely to get more strict with shifts like we say with IOC/NCAA etc. Given this, exactly zero trans players (that we know of) have competed in the WTA under this policy. Zero.

And that....makes sense. First the testosterone suppression significantly cuts down the field of potential men who will retain enough of an advantage to get into the top 10 anyways. Secondly, if you took say 1% of the population being trans (ignore the fake trans people some have anxieties about that clearly didn't manifest here), you are now down to a very small set. But that is probably a bit over estimate as someone successfully competing as a cis male to get into the top echelons of a sport like tennis is far from the typical paths you might expect for a trans person, so I'd guess this is less than the generic population percentage.

Regardless, with a somewhat permissive policy and zero people taking it up, the kinds of fears and anxieties where trans people will completely take over and no cis woman has a chance is just far far far far from current reality. And even then, even if that was a viable thing we should expect in the next ten years, making it more restrictive at the top would still not imply we should be restrictive where it has far more effect which is among kids.
03-27-2022 , 01:51 PM
I think golf will be even more illustrative as Tennis has a much wiser and longer participation history and base to help young women pursue excellence such that a trans woman cannot just coast on her physical advantages alone.

From what i have seen we have only had a tiny number of trans women cross into golf and 100% of them have enjoyed high levels of success who were active golfers but unwinning as cis men prior to their transition.
03-27-2022 , 02:52 PM
Golf gives out less money and the best player rarely wins. But you still may be right for various reasons. Another possibility is marathon running.

I am speaking of the possibility that an athlete who would absolutely not transition under normal circumstances (but possibly is among the group who had toyed with the idea) does it mainly for the money. With the stigma of transitioning eroding, you can't simply invoke random probability when you predict that it is unlikely that a trans women, after treatment can beat the previous female champ. A poor Kenyan who is 30th in his country in running, can probably scoop up lots of female marathon money and take care of his extended family.

And suppose she publicly admits it? Perhaps because she thinks the publicity means more money yet. (Maybe she says she preferred being a woman but wouldn't have gone to the lengths of transitioning without the money incentive.) What happens then?
03-27-2022 , 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
And suppose she publicly admits it? Perhaps because she thinks the publicity means more money yet. (Maybe she says she preferred being a woman but wouldn't have gone to the lengths of transitioning without the money incentive.) What happens then?
Do we actually have to figure out all the details now? We know that there is a problem right now of trans children feeling excluded, and we can rather easily help them feel included in sports right now. These scenarios you and others are concocting are complicated, but if they never happen then why did we hold back? Can't we be helpful for people now and then figure things out later if the need actually arises?
03-27-2022 , 03:29 PM
WTA: Zero trans people. Specifically, zero fake trans people. Requires testosterone suppression.
USGA: One trans woman ever has won one event. Zero evidence of fake trans people. Much stronger rules, requires genital surgery.

I think focusing our attention - of all issues related to trans people, or even of women in sports - on the specific issue of inclusion of trans people at elite sports is ill-advised. However, focusing even within that on fake trans people? Yes yes I know you people all find this a fascinating conversation in a political vacuum, but I can't help but observe how constant anxieties about fake trans people in bathrooms and fake trans people in change rooms and fake trans people in sports etc etc are part of the dialogue that tries to ban trans people from bathrooms and changerooms and sports of all levels for all trans people.
03-27-2022 , 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
Do we actually have to figure out all the details now? We know that there is a problem right now of trans children feeling excluded, and we can rather easily help them feel included in sports right now. These scenarios you and others are concocting are complicated, but if they never happen then why did we hold back? Can't we be helpful for people now and then figure things out later if the need actually arises?
I'm only talking about big money sports. People using my points to argue for bans in other areas are obviously incorrect.
03-27-2022 , 06:14 PM
Yes yes, if pushing anxieties about fake trans people just so happens to neatly align with decades of anti-LGBT rhetoric about them faking things for various sexual or monetary gain, that's on everyone else for being "obviously incorrect" and not recognizing the genius of the super original big brain apolitical idea that someone somewhere might someday try and cheat.
03-27-2022 , 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
Yes yes, if pushing anxieties about fake trans people just so happens to neatly align with decades of anti-LGBT rhetoric about them faking things for various sexual or monetary gain, that's on everyone else for being "obviously incorrect" and not recognizing the genius of the super original big brain apolitical idea that someone somewhere might someday try and cheat.
It does just so happen to align. And the people who it aligns with are obviously incorrect about non big money sports. And the reason I am more likely to be correct than you about future scenarios is not because my brain is bigger nor because my knowledge of trans people is as good as yours. It is because of my much greater knowledge about thieves and cheats and people to whom money means a lot more to them than it does to you. (I would bet even money that the first world champion trans women in tennis, golf, or marathoning, would not have transitioned were it not for the money)

      
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