Anyone who would seek help from a psychiatrist should have their head examined!

I don't recall anyone (let alone many) asserting anything resembling the bolded above.

Please cite two examples. Thanks.

What in the name of Ned are you babbling about with the bolded above?

Why are you so obsessed with INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting the views of not only ME, but pretty much EVERYBODY you engage here?

I find it quite tiresome.

Addendum: I have NEVER prayed with ANYONE regarding their sexual-orientation.

Oh please Non Binary competing they still compete in Cis male or cis female. Whoop Dee Do they call themselves they or whatever. No way is that in any way similar

What point do you think uke was making in that post?

Cuepee: "Basically 1 of 1"
Uke: Quotes Cuepee saying "Basically 1 of 1"
Cuepee: "Read the wiki article uke. It is not just one."
Uke: Uh, the others in the article are non-binary competing in the same gender as their biology. So yes 1. As you said.
Lozen, thinking he is pwning me: "no way is that in any way similar"


You two are the gift that keeps on giving.

Im not sure what point he is making other than celebrating a woman winning at woman's competition whoopee .

Super interesting video, lozen.

I’m too young to remember the trans women she is talking about who ~40 years ago wasn’t a top 100 male but transitioned and became top 30 as a female. I would love to hear an interview with that woman too and hear why she thinks she shouldn’t have been able to play as a woman and why she thinks trans women today shouldn’t be able to compete as women.

1. Sklanky and Trolldude arguing about why there are swimming scholarships. You could clearly infer a distain for collegiant sports from that exchange.
2. Ecru offered the strange position that he thought the money wasted on high school sport should be more evenly distributed to resolve adult obesity.
3. Uke and troll have both proffered "burning down" women's sports if they don't get their way of transathlete inclusion on their terms. Uke also does not appear to believe that any high school level sport is "competitive" or "elite" enough to ban trans athletes for any reason but he has has consistently stated he believes in the value of sports participation.
4. The pictures in your and trolldolls avatars shows clear distain of physical health, let alone sport.

Ganstaman, in addition to a person's subjective belief they are transgender, are there any physical, genetic, hormonal or chemical differences or evidence in a person that would support such a belief?

No thanks Laggy. Do your own work. I am not spending the time in search to find it to then get a 'who cares anyway'. Search E_D's post for the 'its not calculus comment'. I don't remember the second poster who said they would fine with 'just cancelling all sport if this cannot be accommodated' (my paraphrase but it was said. And there are more such comments but I would have to re-read everything to cite them and to what end?

Pray the gay away is mocking reply to the idea that gay people, by repenting and seeking God can cease being gay. With God's grace, charity, support and help they can stop being gay, marry and live a happy satisfied life.

Do you believe that or not?

Its a great clear eyed video that everyone here should watch and that i suspect few will.

Check that, most will, hoping to criticize it, but when they have no real criticisms they can forward they will pretend they did not watch it, as is the template here.

Martina speaks very clearly as to why we need to plan AHEAD and have a 'blanket rule' that does not ignore reality just because trans women are not getting the results in any given period. That coming out of her direct experience with her competing with her friend and coach and early trans women tennis competitor, Renee Richards.

the only part of that video I disagree with Martina in, is that while she is often slighted as being Transphobic she said Renne, being trans could not be slighted in the same way. I would be quite shocked if she was not being slighted in that way.

I think ganstaman is doing a great job and using the proper tact in answering SimpleRick, so great job and full credit to you.


That said I want to offer SRick a different way to consider this. That way is to ask 'who cares'? Not in a dismissive nihilistic way but more of a libertarian philosophical way.

I could certainly engage with the various homeless people i've interacted with over the years, telling them in an aggressive and confronting way that they are mentally ill, but what is my goal or end game in doing so? On this planet people will take all sorts of paths from birth to death and many of those paths you, or I may consider crazy, but it is where they want to go and what they want to do.

Now I am not saying you ignore them, if you think them crazy or needing help. You can ensure support services are there and available for those who embrace them but to aggressively attack them as crazy (even if you are sure they are) seems to me, to not be the best tact.

As you can see, I do think we need to push back and engage this topic when those accommodations start to expand out to others (tangential victims) and I do think we need to step up and give voice to the ones who are often the victims and deliberately silenced thru aggressive tactics like shaming, etc. But you can do that without attacking the trans person directly.

Anyway, not sure this point will get anywhere but I hope you ask yourself some questions about why you feel the need to label them crazy and have it admitted? What drives that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

"Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion.""

Like I said, it is going to come down to tennis. Too much money. Too many men who would make the top ten among women (without treatment, I'm told it's in the thousands). The most popular non team sport. Probably a combination that the "inclusion in elite sports" people cannot overcome.

Tennis is indeed a great example given its prominence, the amount of money, the individuality, the physicality etc. If there was a spot you'd expect trans athletes to take over it is likely here. The WTA policy requires treatment, specifically the same 10nm/mol for 12 months consensus standard a lot of organizations used, and if anything likely to get more strict with shifts like we say with IOC/NCAA etc. Given this, exactly zero trans players (that we know of) have competed in the WTA under this policy. Zero.

And that....makes sense. First the testosterone suppression significantly cuts down the field of potential men who will retain enough of an advantage to get into the top 10 anyways. Secondly, if you took say 1% of the population being trans (ignore the fake trans people some have anxieties about that clearly didn't manifest here), you are now down to a very small set. But that is probably a bit over estimate as someone successfully competing as a cis male to get into the top echelons of a sport like tennis is far from the typical paths you might expect for a trans person, so I'd guess this is less than the generic population percentage.

Regardless, with a somewhat permissive policy and zero people taking it up, the kinds of fears and anxieties where trans people will completely take over and no cis woman has a chance is just far far far far from current reality. And even then, even if that was a viable thing we should expect in the next ten years, making it more restrictive at the top would still not imply we should be restrictive where it has far more effect which is among kids.

I think golf will be even more illustrative as Tennis has a much wiser and longer participation history and base to help young women pursue excellence such that a trans woman cannot just coast on her physical advantages alone.

From what i have seen we have only had a tiny number of trans women cross into golf and 100% of them have enjoyed high levels of success who were active golfers but unwinning as cis men prior to their transition.

Golf gives out less money and the best player rarely wins. But you still may be right for various reasons. Another possibility is marathon running.

I am speaking of the possibility that an athlete who would absolutely not transition under normal circumstances (but possibly is among the group who had toyed with the idea) does it mainly for the money. With the stigma of transitioning eroding, you can't simply invoke random probability when you predict that it is unlikely that a trans women, after treatment can beat the previous female champ. A poor Kenyan who is 30th in his country in running, can probably scoop up lots of female marathon money and take care of his extended family.

And suppose she publicly admits it? Perhaps because she thinks the publicity means more money yet. (Maybe she says she preferred being a woman but wouldn't have gone to the lengths of transitioning without the money incentive.) What happens then?

Do we actually have to figure out all the details now? We know that there is a problem right now of trans children feeling excluded, and we can rather easily help them feel included in sports right now. These scenarios you and others are concocting are complicated, but if they never happen then why did we hold back? Can't we be helpful for people now and then figure things out later if the need actually arises?

WTA: Zero trans people. Specifically, zero fake trans people. Requires testosterone suppression.
USGA: One trans woman ever has won one event. Zero evidence of fake trans people. Much stronger rules, requires genital surgery.

I think focusing our attention - of all issues related to trans people, or even of women in sports - on the specific issue of inclusion of trans people at elite sports is ill-advised. However, focusing even within that on fake trans people? Yes yes I know you people all find this a fascinating conversation in a political vacuum, but I can't help but observe how constant anxieties about fake trans people in bathrooms and fake trans people in change rooms and fake trans people in sports etc etc are part of the dialogue that tries to ban trans people from bathrooms and changerooms and sports of all levels for all trans people.

I'm only talking about big money sports. People using my points to argue for bans in other areas are obviously incorrect.

Yes yes, if pushing anxieties about fake trans people just so happens to neatly align with decades of anti-LGBT rhetoric about them faking things for various sexual or monetary gain, that's on everyone else for being "obviously incorrect" and not recognizing the genius of the super original big brain apolitical idea that someone somewhere might someday try and cheat.

It does just so happen to align. And the people who it aligns with are obviously incorrect about non big money sports. And the reason I am more likely to be correct than you about future scenarios is not because my brain is bigger nor because my knowledge of trans people is as good as yours. It is because of my much greater knowledge about thieves and cheats and people to whom money means a lot more to them than it does to you. (I would bet even money that the first world champion trans women in tennis, golf, or marathoning, would not have transitioned were it not for the money)