Big Victory for Trudeau

https://globalnews.ca/news/7718355/c...onstitutional/

Hopefully Kenney wises up and starts collecting this himself so he can direct the $$$ and not our corrupt dictator

Excellent news. And a stunning rebuke for conservatives. Firstly, despite them just rejecting that climate change is real, a week later for the supreme court's majority opinion explicitly includes the claim that climate change is real, once again highlight how utterly out of touch conservatives are.

Secondly, this isn't surprising in the sense that everyone knew this was constitutional and had effectively zero shot of being overturned. Yet Kenney and Ford, who ironically are far more dictatorial in their province than trudeau has ever been nationally, were just insistence they had to go all the way up to the supreme court only to embarrassingly lose anyways. But how much embarrassment do these guys even feel, as leader in a party who reject that climate change is real anyways?

I've always found Trudeau's plan very smart. And the exact opposite of dictatorial. The carbon tax doesn't dictate basically any detail of what the provinces should do. They can come up with effectively any plan they want, they can run it, they can collect taxes, they can spend it, it is amazing freedom to the provinces. The major requirement is just that it actually has to result in a certain cost per tonne of CO2, how you get there is up to you. This is good politics, because it allows different solutions in different provinces. It is in the spirit of the federation which allows for federal leadership but a lot of provincial jurisdiction. And it is correctly respect the constitution thus being very safe in the courts.

I would agree with you on the first two points. I am surprised it actually was a split decision. 6-3
Now on the 3rd point Trudeaus plan is useless and will have little to no effect on the climate. Though I do agree it does give many options of how you get there for the provinces. Kenney was an idiot to stop collecting the carbon tax and sadly Id be surprised if he starts. He may have some pipe dream on conservatives winning the next election which will never happen. I think JT has a better chance at a majority than the Conservatives adding seats
Kenney's war room would be better pointing out the hypocrisy of British Columbia's failure to take climate change seriously than focusing on a cartoon movie.

If the only things that are done to combat climate change are those that will have immediate and significant impact on the climate, then that effectively means nothing will ever be done.

Just as with the cause of climate change, the solution won't be a single massive thing. Rather it will be thousands of smaller measures implemented across the world by various nations that, when combined, will slowly reverse the effects.

Oh I agree and it starts with each household . Each Individual household can do more but the Saskatchewan premier is right. Carbon tax does not have folks driving less or stop heating their homes.

Why do we not implement the carbon tax on all the coal being shipped out of British Columbia? Why not impose $40 a ton on that coal?

Its like when Justin Trudeau was asked what he personally does to combat climate change and all he could say was " cardboard water bottles"

Yeah that was the point. Its complicated and I don't think anyone knows the correct way to handle it. Its silly to say your pro-science so pro-lockdown, or that without lockdowns healthcare would be overwhelmed when you have examples of both not being true or working. Its been over a year, most places are still under some form of lockdown and we are still seeing high case numbers even with vaccinations and warmer weather. I think it's time young healthy people can go back to normal if they choose while at-risk people continue to isolate and wait for vaccinations.

That's a pretty long list. A year of in person child education, a year of businesses/restaurants not being closed, a year of being able to go out for dinner, a year of organized sports and exercise. The long-term damage that those things might cause should not be over looked.

And yet GDP comparison data shows that 'just because you leave it open does not mean people are partaking and perhaps they are self limiting to protect themselves since the gov't wont'.

Ah great, lozen has got a new whatabouttism talking point he is undoubtedly going to keep repeating, BC Coal. Let's investigate.

1) The BC Carbon Tax does apply to BC Coal, at the same rate per tonne of emissions as anything else. The implication that it doesn't is false.
2) BC coal mining is 80-90s for metalurgical purposes, not thermal. Do you not want steel?
3) BC's coal industry at about 5.5 billion is tiny compared to the 85 billion of albertan oil.

I think what is basically going on here is just a vacuous whataboutism. guys guys guys quick look at BC don't you know they export coal!!!!! OMG THEY ARE BAD TOO GUYS!!!!!

Of course, in reality, this doesn't affect my position in one iota. I'm completely happy for the carbon tax to apply - as it currently does - to BC coal and I'm completely happy for the carbon tax to rise - as Trudeau has set it to do - on oil, coal, and everything else.

False. This is basic economics 101. When prices rise, behaviors change. This is well studied in particular, and specifically established in that higher gas prices correlate with lower amounts of driving, and we should expect it to be true all the way through the supply chain. The more expensive highly polluting things are, the more companies and consumers will take mitigating strategies.

I don't get why conservatives, the ones who claim to believe in markets, get so ****ing confused by basic economic principles. Heck, the whole point of the carbon tax as opposed to many of the other proposed regimes is that it is more market based. Of course, conservatives reject that climate change is real, so what can we expect.

I am talking about all the coal that is shipped through the Westshore Port?
If you do not want dirty oil shipped through your ports than you should apply the same principle that California and Washington have and not ship dirty coal through your ports

https://niagaraindependent.ca/the-di...-of-vancouver/

Yes they are whatboutisms but you seem to want the Tar Sands shut down and applaud the carbon tax. I get it I assume from previous posts your job is a guaranteed income. For many Albertan's the oil industry is how they pay their mortgages and kids college tuition

I would also support a tax on every gallon of sewage dumped into the Ocean by BC and Quebec

If we truly cared about our environment..... Hold on those are BC jobs

The farmer can not choose not to drive his tractor or dry his grain. Many folks in many provinces do not have the option to take a bus or bike to work.

Also a majority of Conservatives believe in Climate Change just not JT's strategy

Have you ever seen the documentary by Michael Moore Planet of the Humans

https://youtu.be/q7yOv7SMlEQ

It basically says were screwed and all those so called Green Folks care more about their green $$$

[/quote]I would also support a tax on every gallon of sewage dumped into the Ocean by BC and Quebec [/QUOTE]My god you are a walking, breathing whataboutism aren't you. I actually don't know what the correct approach is. How do YOU think I should deal with people who can't stick to a topic without going all whataboutwhataboutwhatabout etc? Should I engage all these tangents, like should I point out when they have glaring factual errors like the false claim that BC Coal isn't hit with the carbon tax? Or is that just rewarding the terrible argumentation style because now we've shifted to the yet new attack whataboutism attack?

Ok fine, I'll engage it. I've literally voted to end raw sewage dumping in my city which now has a sewage treatment plant because of consistent advocacy and left wing governments. Did you really think that you had a gotcha for me as an environmentalist?? I'm sorry, I don't believe you care one bit about this issue that I've spent 20 years advocating for. I think it's just a random negative thing you learned that BC does (and obviously Alberta can't geographically) and somehow in your mind doing a whataboutism to this somehow discredits something. It doesn't. Not. One. Iota.

I'm sorry, I just can't even take your posts seriously right now. Seriously? Seriously?? This is what you think is necessary to bring into the conversation after your coal and sewage points fell flat?

What is your point? Is this attempting to disprove that price elasticity of demand is a thing?


Unfortunately, a majority of conservatives just voted to reject that climate change is real. And they have no plan at all, despite also not liking JT's plan (which is one of the most conservative options of the various ways to price carbon). They've never had a plan. It is a national embarassment that we have a major political party who cannot accept that climate change is real at their own policy conventions. It is an unforced error. And it should be punished harshly at the polls.

No a bunch of card carrying conservatives who represent just a small portion of the folks out there. I agree O'Toole should lay out his climate policy he has had more than enough time to lay one out.

I stand by position Climate Change is real and chances are will lead to the human kinds collapse. It could be in 50 years it could be in a 1000 years. What Justin Trudeau is doing will only hurt Canadians and do absolutely nothing to halt it. The planets population keeps growing at a rate it can not sustain and consumption keeps rising as well. Heck just wait till more and more folks in the Asian region income grows and they will be able to afford a luxury like Air conditioning.


Frick Al Gore is linked to corporations burning down the Amazon rainforests to grow sugar cane.

I thought your main argument for a carbon tax was to create imaginary green energy markets. Now you just want everything to be so expensive most people cannot afford it?

Also cite or ban high fuel prices result in lower driving imo.

I'm always surprised when conservatives, who claim to support markets, just fundamentally don't understand the most basic arguments about markets.

Let's try again. When prices go up, people change their behaviours. DUCY? For example, when prices of carbon intensive commodities go up, people will shift their purchases from more carbon intensive commodities to less carbon intensive commodities. Similarly, since the carbon tax is largely revenue neutral by design and the money spent on other things in the economy, it makes those other prices cheaper which increases the consumption.

I feel like if you are going to do "cite or ban" you should do it about something controversial, not just the basic consequences econ 101 principles. As in, you shouldn't be surprised by my statement unless you profoundly misunderstand basic economics, and the "cite or ban" should be applied to someone claiming in violation of basic economic principles. But sure, if you want me to get the first google result for you because you also struggle with googling I can do that too:
The rest of the CBO report you undoubtedly won't read: https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fi...lineprices.pdf

There are basically two conservative positions. There are those - such as those that just set the policy of the conservative party - which denies the existence of global warming. And there are those who acknowledge it exists, but will fight tooth and nail to ever lift a finger to do a single ****ing thing. In some ways the latter is even worse.

I think we have a basic responsibility to act. Now. I think fatalistic arguments that we are small and the world is big and others also have to act are just vacuous. They're true, but not meaningful. We have a responsibility to do what is right for our 0.5% of the world population.

Yet when it comes out to Justin Trudeau speaking out on genocide your reply is " Its complicated"

Uke watch Planet of the Humans.

Lets remember we both believe Climate Change is real I am just not for destroying two provinces economies to accomplish absolutely next to mothing fighting it

Cool whataboutism bro!

Well why don't you tell us. What carbon pricing measure should the federal government implement? You are hyperbolically worried about a mild, market based carbon tax approach destroying Alberta. So what would you do instead?

I'm always surprised how Liberals have no idea how the real world works.

Just because you keep repeating this does not make it true. Companies will offshore production/manufacturing or add the increase cost to the consumer. They will also cut cost other ways like not hiring and downsizing.



Yes I am sure you thoroughly studied the 58 page report. I meant cite or ban that people reduce driving because they find cheaper alternatives not because they cannot afford it because high fuel prices increase the cost of everything.

Again, that you ask this question just illustrates a profound misunderstanding of the most basic economics. When the price of a particular commodity goes up it doesn't "increase the cost of everything" equally. Some things become relatively more or less expensive and the changing prices change consumer behaviour. In that very paper I predicted you wouldn't read despite "cite or ban", it explicitly talks about a corresponding increased ridership in public transit corresponding with the decline in mileage from driving that the rising price of gas was correlated with. That isn't surprising! You shouldn't be surprised by that! You shouldn't be "cite or ban" what is a very reasonable interpretation of basic economics.

Again, a just very basic misunderstanding of economics. If companies can just pass the increased cost to the consumer, then the higher consumer prices again will change consumer behaviors, thus leading to less consumption. And whether or not you can just pass those increased costs to the consumer isn't something that happens automatically, despite conservative orthodoxy about this here, it depends on the competitive market, and companies can't just increase prices without affecting their sales otherwise they would do it today.

The only part of your post that retains any validity is that it is true that the exact ways the market adapts isn't always completely obvious ahead of time, things go up and down in all kinds of ways. But a general market pressure that increases costs of carbon intensive activities will in general result in a shift towards lower carbon intensive activities. To deny that trend is just stubborn ignorance. There are some more appropriate conservative economic critiques of carbon taxes, you just haven't figured them out yet, and I'm not going to help you get there so you're going to have to do your googling yourself here.

As much as I am not a fan of carbon tax. I would be all for it if every country observed it including the middle east, Russia, China and India.
Climate change is a world problem and the Paris Climate Accord is useless as it is not mandatory and exempts some of the biggest polluters

I would be more comfortable with Justin's carbon tax if it included a price on carbon not consumed but also shipped out of the country. For example every ton of coal that is shipped out of Westshore would have a carbon tax on it, as well every gallon of sewage dumped in a waterway untreated would have a tax, and every ton of woodchips shipped out of country for Biomax would have a tax on it. Yes I do realize Alberta Oil would be on that list

Solar Panels contain graphite and quartz guess were those come from?
Lithium Batteries in electric cars contain.... Guess were that comes from

I personally think Nuclear is the best viable option to combat climate change

So basically, "I like it, BUT WHAT ABOUT"

So basically, "I like it, BUT WHAT ABOUT".

But there is good news! As I already explained to you - as you already ignored - BC coal DOES have the carbon tax applied to it! I didn't specifically google woodchips, but the carbon tax applies very broadly and definitely applies to forestry products as well. What on earth made you so confused that you thought it didn't apply? The price is an amount per tonne of emissions. The normal conservative critique is that the carbon tax is too broad, and applies to too much, but you seem to be mad because you think it is too narrow and should apply to even more things? It sure sounds like after you get the basic facts corrected in your mind, you will LOVE this tax!

The carbon tax is only applied to coal consumed in BC all the coal exported through its ports has no carbon tax