Do I even need to cite data that indicate poor people are more likely to let their car registration lapse? You all call this racism, systemic, or otherwise. since it disproportionately impacts minorities, since they are disproportionately poor, but race is not the primary factor, or even a relevant factor.

What do you think the reasons for this disparity in wealth are?

I'm asking an open question, it's not a rhetorical accusation.

It’s just convenient that police can pick and choose which race Frey pull over with expired registrations. At least during the day!

I think your post was largely rhetorical, in which case you should ignore my response. But on the off chance you were serious, I disagree for several reasons.

If, by "zero tolerance", you mean we should never accept police murder after the fact as simply a cost of doing business, then sure, we should have a zero tolerance policy. But if, by zero tolerance, you mean that we should be doing everything conceivable to prevent police murders, no matter the cost and no matter the collateral consequences, then almost no one is in favor of a zero tolerance policy. By that measure of "zero tolerance", we do not have a zero tolerance policy for preventing plane crashes, terrorist attacks, sex trafficking, or any number of other horrendous things. Nor should we.

But the bigger problem is that your use of the word "murder" begs the question. The Inso0s of the world will readily agree that police should not "murder" citizens. And every time there is a police killing, they are also prepared to argue to the ends of the earth about whether the killing was, in fact, murder.

I'm not falling for the goal post shift this time. This thread is about policing, and the current point is concerning driving habits. The legacy of slavery does not make cops pull unregistered drivers over.

I agree that factors like this exist. I doubt that they explain the entire discrepancy. And they certainly don't seem like a complete explanation for the day/night issue.

I am guessing that traffic stops that are motivated solely by car registration issues are relatively rare. In other words, I suspect that citations related to car registration mostly are issued to drivers who have been stopped for reasons that have nothing to do with car registration. Those reasons might be more defensible (other traffic violations) or less defensible (using car registration as a pretextual explanation for pulling over "suspicious" characters). That said, I obviously am speculating on this point. It would be interesting to get the perspective of an actual police officer.

In any case, things like this at least pass the red face test as possible explanations for some amount of discrepancy. Inso0's bullshit about how black people drive differently than white people certainly does not.

That's just one thing. Broken tail lights. Poor people are less likely to get this fixed. I could post an entire list. These are only a few examples. Very few people argue that racism is not a factor. However, this debate only exist because others bring up other factors to help explain the discrepancy. This is the issue with most of the "research" that talks about racial discrepancies. They don't measure these other factors, hardly at all. There is no way you get all of them, but they don't even try to control for much of any other factor. This leads to a much more ambiguous understanding of extent.

Gotta consider the audience.

Some people hear what they want to hear.

Why bring up a subject you don't want to discuss? "We lost because we didn't have possession, but I want to focus on why we lost" doesn't strike me as very interesting.

For the debate you do wish to have, perhaps respond to past posts that cite articles about white supremacy groups having infiltrated US law enforcement. Link to one news article regarding this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...police-US.html

According to former FBI agent German who has done recent legwork on this it’s "widely acknowledged" that racist officers exist in police departments across the US, but little is being done.

Does that make the cut for discussion?

There is absolutely no data in that report. It's taking anecdotal evidence and expounding on it. Saying racist exist and some of them are cops....boring. That's what that says. We know that already. The much bigger story would be if no racist existed. Pretty sure there is some communist police as well. Further, I've been screaming about public service unions and the leadership in these cities.

I'm sure there are some racist police officers just as there are some racist lawyers, doctors, etc. Although I think some people have a difficult time separating the difference between racism and just having a bias or stereotype toward one race. In the profession of the police it's their job to protect their community by fighting and preventing crime, as well as maintaining law and order. If one demographic or race has consistently disrupted the peace at much higher rates than their overall percentage of the population then it's certainly going to sway some sort of bias in those police officer's view towards the overall take on that race when encountering a potential suspect and doing their job.

It's not fair to the honest black person that they get put into that bias in some situations but until the overall demographic improves their behavior in society then they will have to deal with that sort of bias in society. It also doesn't help them that many of their prominent famous and popular figures in the music game, rap about such violence and crimes, etc. That just goes to further push the stereotype into society's view.

So you're super racist but that's okay because you heard some violent rap songs.

It's true. Before JFK there was no racism or abuse in police departments at all.

Brilliant.

I'm not racist at all actually but I'm also not naive enough to believe that I wouldn't prejudge a situation a bit as a police officer if I had a history of similar incidents which proved to be criminal activity in the past.

Since this a a poker forum I'll give you a poker example. I'm at the table and start to see certain tendencies which lead me to believe that this player is an inferior and suboptimal poker player. AT this point I only have a 20 hand sample and it could all be variance but I will start to form a bias that this person quite possibly may be a "fish". After 100 or so more hands it turns out I was wrong with my assumption.

I'm saying that when police officers are out in the real world putting their lives on the line or even just trying to protect the peace they are going to form these sort of bias' based on similar past experiences and overall numbers. It makes sense for them to and I don't believe it qualifies as racism. I guess you just don't get the point. Sorry it flew over your head. Maybe you'll get it this time.

Right. You're not racist, you're simply afraid of black people because you think they're scary and violent.

I have an open question about police unions. I'll say up front that I don't have the answer.

I agree that police unions probably encourage a culture of omerta and that they reflexively protect bad police officers. (As many have pointed out, the latter phenomenon is not unique to police unions.)

On the other hand, as I mentioned before, I think that it is difficult to get the right people to be police officers. The pay isn't great. It's dangerous (even when done properly.) The hours can be weird.

I assume that one of things police unions do is negotiate for better pay, better working conditions, etc. If we break police unions (and I'm not clear on how this would be done), what is the mechanism for making the pay and other aspects of the job good enough to attract the right people?

You get what you pay for. If you want a certain person to be a policeman, pay for it.

However, public service also comes with well understood sacrifices.

If there's a universal rule to the internets it's that if someone prefaces a comment with 'I'm not racist but' you're about to hear some racist ass ****.

Please say you're trolling.

I'm done with this derail and at this point I assume you are trolling cause nothing in either of my posts says anything about really about violence, etc. other than saying that some famous rappers rap about it in their songs.

I'm simply implying that when police officers are patrolling certain areas with a history of criminal activity or are called to a scene with a history of criminal activity then it's possible they start to form some sort of bias based on a variety of factors around them. You can use your imagination to come up with what some of those factors might be in any case. The color of the person's skin, age, etc, while elements are very negligible in the over profiling of the potential suspect.

A person parked in a dark alley at 2am in a dark SUV, with tinted windows is going to draw in alot more suspicion than a person going into a Starbucks at 1pm in the afternoon regardless of their age or race.

If I'm playing poker, I'm sorry "old fellas" but my initial profiling of your expected play is probably that you are going to be tight and rarely bluff. It's based on a history of playing enough older players to know that the majority of them "when they play poker" play in that way. I'm not going to overly adjust or even act on this assumption right away but if things in your play start resembling my initial bias towards you then maybe I was right all along.

In a similar way I'd expect police officers called to a location with a history of criminal activity to react on location. Sure they need to control their bias in the situation and learn the facts first but arguing that their bias is outright racism is just silly.

He isn't. This is what I was referring to when I distinguished between bias and specific intent.

To cneuy3, unless you walk out your door in the morning with a specific intent to **** with black people (or some other group), you are not a racist.

I don't know what word he would use to describe someone who believes that black people as a group are lazier, dumber, and less able to control their sexual desires than white people, but "racist" isn't the word he would use (unless, of course, our hypothetical person also goes out of his way to intentionally **** with black people).

I'd probably just look at whatever Germany, the Netherlands, and Norway do, and then copy their work.

Just to add one more thing as I hate to be unfairly called racist for my view that I think it's expected in human nature for these officers to approach these situations in that way. I'm not saying it's right, just human nature. We all have it, no? How can you honestly expect everyone to approach every situation like it's a "blank slate" and past occurrences have no role in any sort of potential bend one way or the other.

I've dated an african american girl when I was twenty. I ran University track and won conference with a team of more than 65% african american. I'm now married to an asian woman. I'm not prejudice against anyone for the color of their skin but it's not to say that I approach every situation like it's a "blank slate" in life. Of course I see trends and of course my mind bends one way or another sometimes initially when approaching a situation. I don't judge it as the exact end all but there is initial bias at times.

I guess, but we aren't writing on a blank slate and context matters. Solutions that work in another country may or may not work in the United States.

Take gun violence for example. It's pretty obvious that the U.S. requires different solutions than many other countries because the U.S. has so many more guns in circulation than most other countries and no practical way to get them off the street immediately.

He's got a Black friend, people.