Roofers have to deal with drugged-up criminals while conducting their work on the reg? Okayyyy

Boat captains? Jfc.

Of course roofers and boat captains don’t have to arrest angry people that don’t want to be arrested. Amongst other obvious differences.

Wrong. They are literally called into situations that are inherently tense.

That may be true in more rural/suburban areas, actually hadn't considered that. However, those seem to be the least diverse departments to begin with.

If you read my next post, you see that I say I think it works in a world where college is free/low cost. Here in NYC, City/State colleges are basically free for low income families already. Being able to complete a 4 year degree shows you are not a total ****up and meet a certain baseline level of intelligence and work ethic. It would be far better than the 'take 1 easy multiple choice exam and everyone gets in' system we currently have. I think we most certainly need better vetting of candidates, and need to change policing from a fallback option into a desirable career for community minded people.

If you are truly concerned with Police being a representative sample of the communities they police, I believe the real obstacle is the background check. I read somewhere that the background investigations take into account not only your own criminal record, but those of your immediate family and household members, thus causing many black/hispanic candidates to be disqualified. The result is less officers policing the communities that are actually from those same communities. It is a self perpetuating cycle.

Even if we disagree about the extent, and maybe even the context with regards to this issue it's almost certainly not an issue of intelligence. It's an issue of character, personality and ethics.

Read this:
and this:

Yes, because the system is corrupt, and a corrupt system expects corruption from its members.

It is entirely possible that toxic police culture ends up trumping whatever the well-intentioned police officer had in mind going into the job.

However, I would also say that the data in this supporting study is super old and also going by raw arrest numbers + likelihood of use of force isn't really a great indicator of police behavior out in the community?

From your link:

That pretty much sounds like the goal I am trying to achieve here: a cultural/attitude shift towards more community minded police officers. Let's have cops that don't view themselves as an occupying force?

....

This is kind of a shift. My point is identifying causative factors of bad policing. Your solution won't address the bad cops.


It occurs to me, you don't really understand groups and humans, MrWookie moreso.


Rocco brought up the "omerta" issue. Every organization I've ever been a part of, the working folks looked down upon those who told on their colleagues. You won't ever convince me loyalty is bad. Loyalty to your colleagues helps create cohesive team. Bad cops exploit this loyalty.

This is where leadership and oversight comes in, and not turning the other cheek. It's not just a partisan attack to say Democrats and public service unions have created this issue. The union protects all it's members, and it's interest is not in public safety or just outcomes, its entire purpose is to the cop, not the city, not it's citizens. Democrats have provided oversight to these police organizations in the metro cities, and have done very poorly if you believe this is a systemic and widespread issue.


You hear things about citizen review boards and civilian oversight, but you have to ask yourself who is going to fill these rolls....it's going to be the same people who run for mayor and city council. Nothing is going to change.

You want to hold bad cops accountable, elect leaders who will do that, and not placate the unions. The leaders are the ones who need to address bad cops, not a loyal police force. People are a direct reflection of their leadership. No matter how many minority women you hire, it won't get rid of bad cops. You also need to create clear, objective standards.

Yes, it's dumb partisan attack. Republicans bend over backwards for police unions, even as they slash any others.

Republicans have zero power when it comes to the cities where minorities predominantly live.

There was no shift. I conceded you could very well be correct?

Loyalty is not toxic, despite it leading to bad results from time to time. You did not concede to anything. You think it's a culture issue. Bad cops have bad personalities/ethics/character and exploit that loyalty. Leaders and unions protect those cops, more so unions. Thinking cops being loyal to other cops is toxic means you just do not understand groups. You need a check on that loyalty with oversight and leadership.

A handful of police unions operate at the city level, but many operate at the state level.

LOL, at least he's honest about not being persuadable.

[QUOTE=GodgersWOAT;56486339]
Pretty much...


The vast majority of people who are arrested don't resist.
The vast majority of people who resist do so passively.

Once in a great while someone will actually not want to be arrested and do everything possible to avoid it. That person will be electrocuted, doused with deadly chemical weapons and beaten to a bloody pulp. There is also a possibility that a vicious animal will be released onto him, often times onto his head or neck area.
One or more of the cops involved in that will go out on sick leave for a week or two minimum. They will do that until they're 40 years old and then retire with a nice pension and connections to cushy jobs.



On a good day a roofer is working at a height that will put him in the hospital in not kill him if he falls from it. In the hot sun. And doing physical labor for hours on end. If he's lucky and doesn't cripple himself he can get up and do the same thing tomorrow. If he tries to report out sick for hitting his thumb with a hammer he'll be gently steered into a new career track by his kindly foreman.

I'm not really sure I feel sorry for the cops in your illustration.

Wait.....so minorities don't go to college now ?

A 4 year degree or military service and a 2 year degree seem like the minimum for the level of responsibility that will be required.

I honestly can't believe that there are local police forces that only require a HS education.

Well, I don't really see feeling sorry for the cops as the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that given the role police forces have in our society, it seems the current social dynamics are going to be bad for everyone, including black people.

I am not seeing a path where any of this outrage is being funneled towards any productive outcome.

Totally false. Repeating this over and over doesn't make it so.

LOL

You're just worried about the black folk ?

It appears that an inability to recognize a joke is among your many flaws as a poster.

No. I am worried about everyone. I dont see how this is better for anyone.

But one would think all the people that ostensibly are so interested in the welfare of black people should have some concern that nothing that has happened in the last 3 months or so making anything better for the group they profess to be so concerned with.

Loyalty is neither an intrinsic good nor an intrinsic evil. And we don't have to choose between an omerta culture and a Soviet-style, snitching culture.

A strong organizational culture is a culture in which there is respect for doing things the right way. Minor transgressions are dealt with colleague to colleague. Major transgressions that threaten the organization and irredeemable repeat offenders are reported up.

That should be the goal and the expectation.

You don't see how reforms in the way American police are trained and operate is good for anyone ?

And from a larger view, you don't see how protesting and provoking lingering institutional racism in the country can be better for anyone ?

Well, I guess that's your perspective.

They automatically increase the tension in every single encounter they have no matter how innocuous it is.

I think you watch too many police dramas on tv.

Besides your first sentence being incorrect, you're right that cops can certainly increase tension.

If you walk into a room with someone ****ing your 12 year old daughter, tensions may increase.

Except your team isn’t joking?

We have all seen that stupid graphic of death rates per job that morons trot out to claim police work isn’t that dangerous.