Well, we have some empirical evidence. In response to the Floyd riots of 2020 lots of urban police departments dramatically decreased the amount of proactive policing they do, include pulling over speeding drives. And the results are a lot more accidents, crime, deaths and lower quality of living for the majority of people.

That is something a lot of "abolish the police" progressives willfully ignore. Is that we are getting a lot of empirical evidence that their preferred "reforms" are disastrous for the communities they are professing to help.

Desire for progress is fine. But every once in a while you should probably stop and check if progress is actually happening. And the progressive movement seems to have missed that part.

Crunching

The world needs balance.. Giuliani cleaned up NYC which most people applauded, but the violated.civil rights so badly doing it

Police reform and "police relationship with blacks" is such a complex subject. So many moving parts

What I loved about Obama was he did things like being black activists and police union leaders together to discuss things over a beer?

With today's political climate, it seems like you are forced to choose a side, which is very sad

I do think both sides could come up with a system that is much better for both sides... But it'll be hard for people with extreme views on both sides

I wish all this compromise wasn't necessary (I tend to favour the black activists although I don't like BLM as an organization) but I think it is necessary

The 2 things I think progressives have (willfully???) missed

1) personal safety and usefulness is paramont. Much more important on day-to-day basis than DJT being a mentally ill danger. To the world

2) poor/weak policing harms poor minorities the most by far....

Where I lived (with photo radar), they made the owner pay. .. And it was no points on your insurance

I understand different jurisdictions have different courts

That's why the red light tickets don't penalize your license. They're treated the same as parking tickets, going to the owner of the car.

Specifically which departments “drastically” reduced their policing?

You might not consider it drastic, but Portland did less street policing, didn't replace the many officers who quit in 2020, and abolished the street team thing which was likely similar to the Scorpion group in Memphis.

And crime, both violent and property, has definitely gone up significantly. There have been several shootings right by the high school a block away from me.

We've been over Portland before. There was a trivial funding cut that got restored. And this is supposed to be the go-to example of these supposed "drastic" cuts to policing.

Poor/weak policing doesn’t hurt minorities as much as strong/powerful policing.

--I sometimes forget how much neoliberals live in information silos and dont even know the basic reality the rest of us are living in. No one is even arguing that proactive policing has plummeted everywhere since the Floyd riots, and has not picked back up as one would expect if it was due mainly to the pandemic. It is just a fact, like the sky is blue. It would be impossible to even make the opposite argument, as all the data points the other way.

And there actually isn't even a lot of argument whether this is a good or bad thing; pretty much everyone acknowledges it has been a giant negative. The real contention is whether this is the fault of the police (for being petulant they were called out for bad behavior and now refusing to do their job) or the fault of progressive activism vilifying police and making it impossible for them to do their job.

Ironically, black activists who acknowledge police standing down in urban areas actually argue that it is a manifestation of racism against them. So when the police are proactive it is racism, but when they arent it is too.

Just a couple graphs out of an infinite number all showing the same thing.







https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fm8CmCkX...jpg&name=large

I don't think it was trivial. But also they did lower their head count quite a bit, and got rid of the street crime unit, like Memphis just did.
And things got a lot worse.

The way I look at it, this shows how much worse things get even with what you call trivial cuts, so things will likely get worse even faster and further with bigger cuts.

The funding cuts that many cities enacted (and many quickly retracted) is a separate issue than the decrease in proactive policing, although I am sure there are some correlations. And the funding coming back hasn't necessarily brought back proactive policing as if they were directly correlated.

But yeah, Portland is the poster child for disastrous effects of getting rid of special crime units. Although a big part of the problem leading to the dramatic uptick in homicides and drug overdoses (which probably deserves its own thread) is the dual headed monster of:

1. The open southern border where cartels are bringing in fentanyl to sell on the streets.
2. Progressive drug policies of ignoring, and in some cases facilitating, fentanyl use.

I don't think it's so complicated. Cops need to start turning in other cops and clean up their act.
Should only take a generation or 3 to rebuild their image.

lol liberal border policies itt.

lot of people saying crime is rising without posting any links to statistics.. let's see some data which cities went up higher than national average.. and like actual numbers not the fearmongering percentage slants like "MURDERS UP 65% at this point over last year1111!1!" when that means there was 2 more total murders.

the only data posted so far is that traffic stops went down.. which is a MASSIVE POSITIVE all around.. lol at crying because there are less people getting profiled for equipment violations..

here's a quick link about how there was no actual defunding even at the peak of "defund the police"
https://abcnews.go.com/US/defunding-...ry?id=91511971

Portland records its 93rd homicide in 2022, a new all-time high

https://www.opb.org/article/2022/11/...s-ted-wheeler/

Portland's homicide rate increased by 207% from 2019 through 2021, new report finds

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/cri...c-21c2d9272f01

Why would you post these anecdotal and biased evidences?

thanks. i'll look through these some more tomorrow.. although initially this kinda proves the opposite of funding = better numbers if that was the point..

portland shows an increase of 11 total homicides from 2021 to 2022. and your article says the police budget INCREASED by 11 million dollars in that time span. also each of those years it appears 5 of those deaths included were police killing people. seems like we should maybe take police killing people out of the mix.

that first power point all of a sudden stops citing things when it comes to regarding funding, but relies on feels to say they cut staffing, when obviously you're other article says funding increased.

I didn't check the funding amounts and times, but I think more than doubling of homicides in a fairly large city over a three year period is pretty significant. You might feel it more strongly if you were living here.

I am wondering which of the other people posting here about these issues actually live in an inner city where there is a good amount of crime, and which ones live out in a quiet suburb (or even in another country, which I know is a good number).

i can't imagine portland is near even the top 50 in a list of places with "a good amount of crime".. even at 2022 numbers.. lol

In the US I'm sure it is, maybe not in the world, if that's what you mean.

Where do you live?

Its neither here nor there but I assume they will eventually lower the charges to the more correct first degree manslaughter.

I couldn't find Portland on any U. S. top-50 crime lists.

Portland's police budget is higher than it's ever been.

Like I said, you couldn't come up with any evidence to support the opposite argument. All the evidence points in the same direction. All progressives can do is stick their head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it. There is no counter argument to be made.

More correct why?