Yeah I've gone over the footage again a couple of times since and that is what the facts seem to indicate. There's a serious wtf factor here though that just makes the reason despite being apparently supported by the cam footage as hard to swallow. I guess people really can act so dumb.It's just kinda hard to accept.

The debate is police reform. The police need to reform because they are too violent in general and particularly because they systemic racism present in America manifests itself directly through their actions.

So if you take the other side of this debate you are arguing to keep the racist system in place by definition. So...yes, you will be thought of as a racist within the context of this debate. Even if you're playing devil's advocate, which HIV is not afaik.

But yeah, teaching little black kids to comply is a great idea.....totally unfair to see the racism inherent in that. jfc.....

Am I the only one who thinks it's insane that police are instructed to taze a driver who is driving away ? Where do they think they're going ? You follow them and eventually you'll get them. Everything isn't a lethal force situation and electrocuting someone is lethal. No matter what they say. That kind of force shouldn't be used on a fleeing suspect, only for protection. ****ing imbeciles.

And that tazers are black instead of yellow ?
Cops shoot people for using a phone all the time. These details are important.

Not just black people dummy. It always goes this way. You, Trolly, Cupee, et al think I'm talking about just black people when I say stuff like massive outreach, and teaching people to comply with police. Got to be pretty racist to think it's only black people who resist:

And you and I do if our phone flies off the seat while driving and in trying to retrieve it we take our eyes off the road and accidentally kill a pedestrian.

There is no way I think any charge sticks to her that requires intent. A jury has enough to have doubt on that. The charge here has to be around negligence, imo.

You just argue a bunch of BS.

Parents of POC already tell and beg their kids to just go along quietly and peacefully with police, no matter how egregious the cop is being, in a hope they come home alive.

For many POC this is the biggest fear when it comes to accidental or wrongful death.

So people do these things despite hating they have to just as we teach people to be smart tourists when they travel so they won't be victimized.

What we are against is people who come into these debates who offer this as the 'solution' while deflecting away from the only thing that can really make a significant impact on this which is training cops better on de-escalating techniques and changing the 'rules of engagement' when it comes to use of force.

Your position here is very similar to a group of people seeing a protest after a murder like this and the friends and family of the deceased saying 'black lives matter' after the killing, and they decide they need to oppose them and chant 'all lives matter'.

It is basically trolling the victims and purposely so.

I was responding to a comment on racism.

I'm sorry if you think the fact that you can't follow a conversation makes me dumb. I'll try and comply and do better next time so you don't taze me with those hurtful words though.

I told my kids the same thing. You're not going to win at the moment so it's easier just to shut up and do as they ask and fight it out in court later.

But that has nothing to do with police abusing power. If a citizen doesn't want to go along quietly and wants to assert their rights then they shouldn't expect to end up in the hospital or worse.

And as videos show, cops do shoot people in the back and plant guns on them. They also pull people over for traffic violation and let them die while in police custody days later.

But you know...it the world of HIV everything is the fault of the victim for not complying. Some people honest can't comply and some just don't want to and that's their business.

He spectacularly misses the entire point of having a discussion in the first place.

What...me worry ?

Vox actually made a similar point. The protests that's occurred resulted in less police shootings in those areas.




There are margins of error in policing and shootings. In a pro-gun country, you're going to have incidences of lethal force being used per x number of police interaction. That number is already, really, really low. And almost all of them are justified. You're just not going to reduce the number of police shootings with training.

This is dated, but the numbers of folks shot hasn't changed much:

"Well over 95 percent never shoot their weapons here," said New York City Police Commissioner Howard Safir.


It should be intuitive that the best way to reduce the number of police shootings, is reduced the number of police interactions. Police abolishers have figured this out. However, that has the flaw of making crime more permissive.




Proactive police focuses on targeting drugs and guns, possession of those items, by themselves, have no victim. This proactive policing leads to cops wanting to search vehicles. If a person is in possession of drugs or a gun, that increases the likelihood of someone resisting and not complying.

If you think of it from an allocation of resources perspective, those cops who are looking for guns and drugs, then can focus on other crimes, ones with actual victims. All those minutes they're using to search vehicles, they aren't using their time to look in the vehicle, and risk of arrest are going to be lower.

It has to be said, though, you have to be prepared for an increase in homicides. Just like with a person driving drunk, and letting them go, and mile down the road they may kill someone, or give someone a lethal dose of drugs. Invariably, the confiscation of guns and drugs have safed lives, probably more than the number of people killed by police shootings, which is why you need wide spread drug treatment, and a more permissive, regulated, and legal drug market, if you are not going to police those things.

With all that said, that doesn't stop the police from dealing with those who resist and run when they have warrants. However, you would reduce the number warrants related to guns and drugs.

No, of course we don't believe that. It's that it's overwhelmingly Black people who get murdered for resisting (or even not resisting) while white people have a decent chance of coming out unscathed.

It's also pretty lol that you place the onus on untrained people to not get murdered for non-compliance, even in the face of contradictory orders, instead of on trained law enforcement officers for not murdering people who may not be winning the game of Simon Says but who clearly are not posing a threat to the officers or anyone else.

The cops should really have immediately opened fire the instant they saw his tags were missing. Who knows how many lives the Lt’s murderous rampage might have claimed?

Minnesota cops aren't trigger happy after all

https://www.tmz.com/2021/04/15/minne...t-shot-killed/

Actually had this exact debate with CV much earlier in this thread when we were discussing that case where the unarmed guy in the busy 'Wendy's (?) parking lot ran from police and they opened fire hitting at least one nearby car with kids in it.

He claimed it was justified due to the fear that a fleeing suspect, even known to be unarmed at the time, might run away, turn a corner somewhere and have a gun hidden, to do worse crimes, or other future crimes.

The 'running' was so intolerable and fraught with risk, that the police shooting in a family crowded area was the correct action.

For context.


I'm not talking about what you "believe". Those folks explicitly stated they think I'm talking about teaching/training just black people, which is why Trolly, Cupee, RF, and you call me racist. Now you respond to that by shifting the context, like always.



Right, you care about racial equity, not police shootings. It's the same thing that other guy was talking about. The racial disparity tells you nothing about how dangerous the police are, but keep repeating this, and reinforcing fear of police.

The cops would have shot the guy if they had a line of fire on him. The two other cops had the stuck cop in line of fire. The stuck cops (likely) dominant hand was trapped in the window. He would have to reach around with his left hand to right hip while being flung around.

It’s fun when they say the quiet part out loud.

Porque no los dos? And if we're going to play the game of saying what other people care about, you seem to care a lot more about victim blaming than actually addressing the cause of police shootings: the police.

Whatever you say.

I don't know man.

Not saying cops won't and don't shoot poorer whites too, but it seems whenever you see police holding back, taking on massive risk, and trying to negotiate and deescalate with suspects it is cases where the guy is white and often some type of 'sovereign citizen type.


In this video the two cops are basically begging and pleading with a guy who does reach for a visible gun while making it clear it 'would be self defense' if he used it on them.

Such a contrast to the treatment someone like Castile got when no gun was even visible and he was trying to be calm and follow orders.

Butthurt cops deliberately shirking their duties when challenged on their license to kill indiscriminately is not the winning issue you think it is.

To justify cops killing people based on the the speculation that the suspect could later go on and kill someone is laughable. There aren't protests over cops killing active shooters, and we have videos of cops managing to safely arrest people who are armed and dangerous. There are protests over cops killing people who are stopped and not a threat to anyone. This lieutenant was in a stopped car with his hands out the window. The cop could have holstered his weapon and eaten a sandwich while yelling at the guy to just keep his hands where they were, and they could have stayed that way for hours.

As i have stated numerous times cops have the absolute lowest threshold when it comes to a right to kill based on their perception of risk and defending themselves.


An average lawfully armed citizen cannot just kill another citizen based on the fear a cell phone was a gun, and get away with it, with the fear being deemed justified.

An active soldier in a war zone, cannot just kill civilian citizens in city areas of the other country who are not armed combatants out of fear they might have a weapon and threaten them.


We require they take the time (and risk) to clearly identify the threat and that, that threat was real and present.

Somehow, and quite perversely, the singular group given this 'fear is enough' defense, are the ones paid for by the very citizens they are sworn to protect. Somehow we have convinced ourselves they should have the lowest threshold to justifiably kill their charges.

It's been mentioned plenty already, but not having 911 be the first call for many incidents or inquiries that aren't emergencies would be a good start. We need dedicated numbers to handle that, because right now people call 911 for the dumbest ****

Also swatting is a thing. It is ****ed up imo and there should be consequences for abusing the 911 system. Lives are at stake, not to mention swatting itself is arguably attempted murder if certain conditions are met

Legalize marijuana, possibly more drugs

Legalize sex work

Eliminate for profit prisons

Have police not be the primary in response to incidents, but rather secondary to ensure safety for the primary, which would be a social worker or mental health professional. Our default response to many incidents is a bullet or show of force. It's insane, draconian, and just plain ignorant and unsafe

I know it sounds naive, but the hug can be more powerful than the bullet. Choosing not to delve into complementary behavior and not responding in anger but in restraint and composed despite being in the face of ire can work wonders. It's just anecdotal, but I've won people over just being kind and polite to others who were initially ready and waiting to tear my head off or threatened me in one way or another. But simply not giving someone "ammo" really takes it down a notch. Over time, they become your friend, or at least talk to you like a normal human being you feel you can trust rather than intimidate and threaten instantly at any perceived slight or misunderstanding

Hold police officers accountable for their actions. They never are, or get slaps on the wrist and they know it. They gleefully do things, grotesque things and joke about it after, because they're essentially immune to true consequence, and they think they are justified because of the absolute disgraceful human beings they deal with day in and day out for years on end. It's understandable, but absolutely unacceptable

Fund Planned Parenthood. Even if you are morally opposed to abortion, your goal is to reduce them, no? OK, well legalizing abortions leads to less abortions overall. How? Because when you have an abortion, you aren't burdened with having to pay for a child you can't afford and it doesn't end up in the foster system which is a joke anyway. That may sound terrible, but the more we do to reduce the likelihood of someone being born into poverty and staying there (which is arguably immoral too), the greater chance less abortions happen in the future. Pregnancy in general happens less frequently the more education and income/wealth you have. Over time, generations really, we could get to a point where banning them or making it a more stringent process that emphasizes births and the seriousness of the decision itself to continue its reduction in use. If nothing else, to demand everyone have children when they're not ready and can't pay for it and also demand we cut social services and welfare makes absolutely no sense. If you want more unplanned pregnancies via banning abortion, then you're going to get more people born into poverty and the likelihood of staying there goes up. It cements the cycle of poverty. Cementing the cycle of poverty exacerbates crime. More crime means more police burden. Many places are already stretched thin as it is and in the worst areas the job is hard enough bordering on the impossible...

Universal healthcare can provide drug treatment and mental health services that many people desperately need. Right now, many get no help at all or thrown in jail. Police officers physically kicking homeless out of any one area (some of which are war veterans for Christ's sake) and bothering people with weed on them is a colossal waste of time. It also creates resentment and distrust of police from disproportionately affected communities. I saw this first hand as I've smoked blunts in the hood and bong ripped with white cats in college and at house parties. Take a guess who the cops ****ed with more? Meanwhile those white cats do the same if not more drugs in general. It's not all about race. It's rich/poor with racism mixed in. But if people weren't so prejudicial, then maybe they'd have caught a guy like Cosmo DiNardo before he started murdering people and hiding bodies. I grew up in Bucks County. Unheard of to happen there. You can sleep on your lawn and no one would touch you in many neighborhoods. But if you lived where my dad lived, then that type of **** is nothing. It's Tuesday, or this past weekend. My dad's business delivers to some of those locations where the shooting occurred. I mistake fireworks for gunshots sometimes because I worked there for a few years some time ago

Reducing the overall number of guns in this country would probably help too. Or perhaps technology to enhance tracking. Reasonable gun control measures, perhaps, anything to address guns in the hands of criminals. Hell, even Chris Rock's suggestion sounds like it would work lol



There is a laundry list of ideas out there. But here in the US, we are in the midst of both idiocracy and rampant corruption and zero political will. There are no profiles in courage here. They get voted out quickly. We are left with the naive, sycophantic, and sociopaths as a result...

The whole reason there is brutality is because there are police/citizen interactions. The less interactions, less brutality. For example, instead of tazing Sterling Brown for parking like a dickhead in an empty parking lot at 2am, write him a ticket and walk away. Or literally just say to him, "Dude just park in one space that is not meant for the handicapped. I'm not here to rip your head off, I get that it's 2am and nobody is here or cares. Just do it the right way, because you do not want to run into the wrong cop who will just have your **** towed."

Cops do this thing where they just have to run the plates or get ID and check for warrants and all this dumb **** and while some of it is protocol, a lot of it is discretion and their discretion is not always getting someone dangerous off the street. Sometimes you just end up tazing an NBA player because you were hostile from the minute he walked out to his car. Or you effect a felony stop and mace a military vet. Just completely unnecessary **** and it seems the concept of fighting crime is lost in many moments where all it takes is thinking through the very encounters you're going to involve yourself in or the actions you will take...

Everything I and other posters are suggesting will reduce the likelihood of future brutality cases. It hopefully will have the added effect of increasing public trust of police, which is a good thing as well for all involved

I would argue that it's a bit of the rich/poor dynamic that white people tend to care less than black people do. One thing people of all stripes tend to do is complain about the things that directly affect them. Friend has MS or CF? They do charity work for that cause. Lose someone to suicide or drunk driving? MADD and suicide prevention. Black people "care more" because their communities are directly affected by that issue. White people don't even notice it, because it's not wrecking their communities left and right. You know what bothered them and got them complaining on facebook and in public? Covid. And the opioid epidemic. They definitely never cared about crack...And there is one other glaring contrast, and it's that white communities tend to trust police. Communities of color are simply not even remotely on that level. Sanctuary cities exist for a reason. Refusing to offer information to police being commonplace exists for a reason. They straight up don't trust five oh and that's not going to change unless they give them reasons to. Blame the media, irresponsible people, whatever anyone wants to blame, the fact remains trust is earned not given and that's just the way it is

I can't imagine why people would be nervous when they're approached by the avg aggro cop sweating out last night's beers with a gun on their hip