Israel/Palestine thread - Page 458 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

I've been pretty careful to describe this as "ethnic cleansing" instead of "genocide," so try again. Also, if the population of Jews in Poland reaches pre-1930s levels, does that mean the Holocaust wasn't a genocide?

The thing is, even ethnic cleansing doesn't pass here. We're talking about Muslims. There's no ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Israel.

There is a security concern with Gazans, however.

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01-09-2024 , 02:29 PM

#11427

PointlessWords

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Originally Posted by Victor

Palestinians Israeli citizens do not have full rights

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Originally Posted by chillrob

They certainly have the right to vote. Which rights do they not have?

I know you don’t understand this but the right to vote is not the same as having full rights.

Why did you write about voting rights instead of answering the question about full rights?

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01-09-2024 , 02:41 PM

#11428

Bill Haywood

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

it likely means they want to continue to control all of the Palestine area, with Israeli citizens of all ethnicities continue to have full rights, and not be killed.

Full rights cannot be the objective. That would make Jews the minority from the river to the sea, which is a non-starter across the Israeli political spectrum.

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01-09-2024 , 02:42 PM

#11429

PointlessWords

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Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

This is exactly what happened. Hamas is by far the least threatening of Israel's major worries. In the event of an attack by one of the larger threats in the area Israel would have responded in a way to discourage anyone else from joining in or attempting such an attack again. This means a lot of destructive power. Precision would not be the goal in such a show of force. An unguided bomb costs something like 5k USD. A precision bomb like a Jdam is closer to 30k. You can guess which one Israel was stocking up on for that scenario.

Since this began USA has been trying to send Israel the precision guided bombs to reduce civilian casualties, and also pressure them to keep casualties down in other ways. As bad as this situation is, it could be far worse. (I think there is an argument to be made that if Israel was not properly armed for this type of a mission then they should not have begun it however.)

There's a naive notion both here and in Ukraine that if USA just stopped giving aid then the conflicts would stop. No, they would be far more deadly and have far more indiscrimate killings.

I specifically said if Ukraine had not fought back there would be less deaths and suffering than if they had submitted to occupation.

The same thing applies here for Gaza/ Palestine.

Please do not include me in your delusions regarding this topic.

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01-09-2024 , 02:46 PM

#11430

Trolly McTrollson

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Originally Posted by rafiki

The thing is, even ethnic cleansing doesn't pass here. We're talking about Muslims. There's no ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Israel.

Forcing 2 million Palestinians to evacuate Gaza is textbook ethnic cleansing, even if most of them are Muslims.

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01-09-2024 , 02:53 PM

#11431

Victor

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Originally Posted by chillrob

Well, I certainly don't support the actions of that quasi-governmental organization, and I believe the government shouldn't allow that rule.

That said, 20% of the citizenry being denied access to 13% of the land doesn't sound like the worst discrimination in the world, and definitely not as bad as what the surrounding Arab nations did by expelling their Jewish citizens.

there are plenty of other rules. and there is de facto discrimination.

I am not sure what the Arab nations expelling Jewish people has to do with Palestinians in Gaza in 2024. it sound like you are trying to use it to justify the discrimination against Palestinians? I dont follow or see the pertinence.

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01-09-2024 , 02:56 PM

#11432

Bill Haywood

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Israeli MPs hold meeting on building settlements in Gaza

Knesset member:

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make "all of the Gaza Strip a place for new Israeli communities". . . ."Israel should create a problem for the Arabs, to the point where Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey are forced to absorb them as refugees as they did from Syria."

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01-09-2024 , 03:14 PM

#11433

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

I still imagine they wouldn't have been as strict about these things if the leaders weren't terrorists who sent missiles over the border every time they could. I guess we'll never know for sure though.

Also, a "prison" only works if all doors are closed. Egypt could have opened their border to accept refugees at any time, right? Or was Israel actually preventing Palestinians from going to Egypt? If the US did successfully build a wall across the entire border with Mexico, would you then say Mexico was a prison?

Egypt blockades rafa for the same reason Israel controls the other border. Not because Israel makes them

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01-09-2024 , 03:16 PM

#11434

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

The residents of Gaza do not want to flee their homes to live in refugee camps in Egypt, I can't emphasize this enough.

I disagree

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01-09-2024 , 03:20 PM

#11435

Bluegrassplayer

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Originally Posted by PointlessWords

I did not name anyone and your statements here do not pertain to USA providing military aid. However, there would not be fewer deaths in Ukraine under occupation, but there certainly would be fewer deaths in Gaza, which ironically shows your delusions on the topic you chose to bring up which, once again, is not the same as USA providing military aid. I'll leave that for the Ukraine thread though which already discussed this in depth.

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01-09-2024 , 03:22 PM

#11436

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

Saudi Arabia interested in Israel normalisation deal after war

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...t-67922238.amp

I've said all along

This war was started because of the deal. Saudi will have big influence on post war gaza

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01-09-2024 , 03:27 PM

#11437

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haywood

Full rights cannot be the objective. That would make Jews the minority from the river to the sea, which is a non-starter across the Israeli political spectrum.

He clearly said israeli citizens.

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01-09-2024 , 03:35 PM

#11438

Bluegrassplayer

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Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

I've said all along

This war was started because of the deal. Saudi will have big influence on post war gaza

The planning for Oct 7 clearly started before the negotiations, but the negotiations probably moved the date for it up.

The best outcome for Palestinians now is that the future of Gaza becomes part of the Israeli-Saudi negotiations in allowing the Palestinian authority back to Gaza. The terrorist attack set them back drastically. Palestinians potentially were getting a state as part of Saudi Israeli negotiations.

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01-09-2024 , 03:37 PM

#11439

Victor

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Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

how on earth would there be fewer deaths?

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01-09-2024 , 03:48 PM

#11440

Bluegrassplayer

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I don't know what you're asking.

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01-09-2024 , 03:49 PM

#11441

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

Agree

I really thought a 2 state solution was going to happen. I much less confident now

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01-09-2024 , 03:53 PM

#11442

Victor

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Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

I don't know what you're asking.

if the USA stopped sending bombs and ammo to Israel, how on earth would that result in more deaths?

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01-09-2024 , 03:54 PM

#11443

57 On Red

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Originally Posted by rafiki

There's no ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Israel.

Not in Israel proper, no. But there is in the West Bank. It is the very means by which Israeli domination of the West Bank has been gained. The Arabs get chucked off their land so the settlers, generally recent arrivals from the US, can take over. The IDF who have to look after the settlers don't even like them (the settlers tend to refuse to serve in the IDF, claiming the religious exemption) and the whole thing is a bit mad.

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01-09-2024 , 03:54 PM

#11444

Bluegrassplayer

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Already covered, scroll up.

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01-09-2024 , 03:57 PM

#11445

washoe

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Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

However, there would not be fewer deaths in Ukraine under occupation, but there certainly would be fewer deaths in Gaza,....

I dont get that either. I think he means this.
How would there not be fever death under occupation?

A- russia doesnt even want to occupy, they just want no nato and no western interference which is reasonable.
and B - there would be fewer death if ukaine would not be fighting russia. (there would be close to zero death imo in that case)

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01-09-2024 , 04:10 PM

#11446

Victor

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Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

Already covered, scroll up.

dont be a troll

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This means a lot of destructive power. Precision would not be the goal in such a show of force. An unguided bomb costs something like 5k USD. A precision bomb like a Jdam is closer to 30k. You can guess which one Israel was stocking up on for that scenario.

Since this began USA has been trying to send Israel the precision guided bombs to reduce civilian casualties, and also pressure them to keep casualties down in other ways. As bad as this situation is, it could be far worse.

try to back up these arguments with actual facts bc from what I have seen, this assertion in no way reflects reality.

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01-09-2024 , 04:15 PM

#11447

PointlessWords

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Saying you killed 7 civilians instead of 10 so you’re reducing civilian deaths isn’t the brag you think it is.

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01-09-2024 , 04:15 PM

#11448

rafiki

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Originally Posted by washoe

I dont get that either. I think he means this.
How would there not be fever death under occupation?

A- russia doesnt even want to occupy, they just want no nato and no western interference which is reasonable.
and B - there would be fewer death if ukaine would not be fighting russia. (there would be close to zero death imo in that case)

Is that based on pinky swears?

Dude look at the history of how these "all we want is...." things go. You're going to discover it's generally bs. But particularly when someone like a Putin is the one saying it.

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01-09-2024 , 04:23 PM

#11449

washoe

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Originally Posted by rafiki

and here we go again spinning in circles.
no, its based on common sense.

putin isnt even a bad guy anymore right?
whereas hamas is now the bad guy.
unitil the next bad guy is found.
putin is probably gonna be invited soon again to the white house,
whereas hamas is gonna be uninvited and iran, and quatar.