Sure it could be.

Do we need absolute proof that Facebook had impact on the 2016 elections to discuss it? The Trumpers say we do and laugh at any attempt to discuss the more obvious linkage.

Do we need absolute proof that show the internet played a strong role in radicalizing otherwise MC husband and wives and parents to 'over throw the Capital' on Jan 6 or can ew discuss the more obvious linkage?

This is a discussion forum,, and I think one is feeding the other.

It is, and asking for proof of a claim seems absolutely reasonable in that context. You're straw-manning me here as well. I'm not asking for absolute proof, I'm asking for any proof that difficulty in finding a sexual partner is what determines someone becoming an incel. You're discussing this as if it's a given. What is the connection? Maybe the same men who are incels now wouldn't have gotten laid before dating apps. Maybe it is something else entirely that has caused them to emerge now. You're discussing the dating app thing to the exclusion of all other options.

I cannot even follow that question as reasonable to be honest.

What you are asking is to prove Trump like 'intent'. Speak to what is in a person's mind.

We will never have that type of evidence you are asking for short of enough incel types saying it. And not a few as anecdotal is not the proof you are asking for, we would need tremendous weight of admissions to psychologists where they could establish the correlation as true. Short of that it is all just us comparing correlating trends and trying to establish if one is driving the other.

I cannot say for sure any Jan 6th Mom and Pop who went to 'over throw the Capital' got radicalized via the internet, but I am comfortable discussing that as a likely driver.

If you cannot provide proof then why not provide opinions of those who have some expertise in this area of behavior science that back your incel culture claim. Why should your Cliff Clavin theories be given any weight other than you just like talking about all sorts of topics on the internet.

So do you believe it's a complete coincidence that the number of incels has significantly increased in the last ~10 years, just at the same time as online dating apps and Instagram have become very popular?

It could be that the internet lets the incels chat with each other more easily and anonymously than happened in the past where they individually got coupons from comic books in the belief that they would then get bigger and punch out the huskies that kicked sand in their faces to get the girl.

First quote me suggesting that I want anyone to give a topic like this any weight rather than it just being idle chatter prompted by a headline?

I generally don't reply to your empty trolling but please, go ahead and show me the basis of your question?

What some are saying is we should not discuss this and any signs without absolute proof or expert testimony. The Apps providing data themselves and the reports from all sorts of agencies are not enough for a discussion forum like this, where apparently the chat topics should be held to a higher standard before topics engaged.

I have never seen any proof of the Internet being the radicalization engine of the Jan 6th mothers and fathers going to over through the gov't so why discuss it here. After all 2+2 is a forum for 'proof only' and only serious chat.

Or perhaps some see it as just another avenue to troll???

Your post title is literally "Incel Violence, Terrorist threat and Societal challenges when young men can't get any"

Guess I am curious how you title a thread that you want to give some weight to the discussion if that is what you use for a throwaway chat that deserves no weight. That a good enough quote for you, or you just going to do your goto call others racists routine when you think you are being trolled?

All the best.

There is no "80/20" study, there are some vague blog-posts by people claiming to have access to internal datasets in a few dating apps, and a plethora of blogs, social media pundits and journalists which have exaggerated this flimsy and largely unverified material to the point of no credibility. Regardless, it is still completely irrelevant to the problem of a radicalized incel movement which is now fostering terrorists and mass murderers.

A lot of these posts in this thread seem to imply or hover around the idea that bad draws on the dating scene is the reason why radical parts of the incel movement is encouraging and committing terrorism. This is a pretty absurd view for several reasons.

The first is of course that bachelors or people with little success romantically haven't really organized protest movements and mass murders to avenge their misfortune in the past. That pretty much blows the "sexual frustration" argument completely out the water.

The second is that we pretty much know that the cause of the extremism: Rejection of norms, echo-chambers and radicalization by peers. Their theories about society is merely their equivalent of white supremacists yelling about Jewish conspiracies and white genocide, reality is irrelevant.

Right so if you read the OP you will see the topical new article that prompted this thread.

New Secret Service report details growing incel terrorism threat


From there the conversation that Trolly thought should not even happen has been one of the most engaged threads at the top of this forum with many people contributing.

If you think such threads need to stick tightly to only 'fact' , 'evidence' or other such and cannot go into speculation about potential causation, etc, then perhaps consider writing the mods to request that.

Others in this thread are quite easily engaging with and discussing this despite 2 or 3 of you pretending this is such an offense it does not belong in such erudite discussion forums as 2+2.

Until then I will just go back to ignoring your sole contribution to almost every thread which is only empty posting and trolling as I cannot see a single thread where you, in any way are otherwise engaging in earnest discussion. fine if that is your thing. And I look forward you to jumping into the next thread to question its reason for being if not for fact and heady discussion.

I see these forums differently, as obviously do all the people happy to speculate on this topic while knowing its not heady talk or proving anything.

All the best.

I doubt it's sexual frustration. Anger at their status is the powerful driver. The fact they didn't organise pre social media seems pretty meaningless.

I'm a bit dubous that dating apps are a factor but maybe.

Plus a proportion of young men are potentially very dangerous. A a partner uses up a great deal of the time and energy. Kids even more so. Then they get older.

This is the most likely explanation. I think a lot of bitter young men would have previously grown out of it as they matured instead of getting sucked down the rabbit hole.

The key tenets of radical incels are typically:

a) The idea of "reverse rape". They see a man being rejected as a crime on par with how society views rape.
b) Entitlement to sex. They claim men are entitled to sex and that rape of women is therefore justified.
c) Worship of violent terrorists. People who commit murders in the name of incels are revered and glorified in memes, often likening them to historic heroes or religious saints.
d) They see arbitrary murders of women as a justified response to feminism, or rather their facsimile of feminism.
e) They see society as morally ruined. Adherents can only find truth or proper principles within the incel movement.

Let me go out on a limb and state that this isn't ideology that is going to be fixed with dating advice.

The 'philopsophy' of these sorts of movements are invariably going to be a load of crap. The underlying emotional problems with low status/etc are real.

Just from my very limited experience with men who might be this dangerous, the issue was an obsession with particular women they knew (even friends with) but who weren't interested in them as partners.

I agree. It's so full of crap that I felt insulted typing it out.

But, it's crap that must be considered when debating the movement. In the context of extremism, we're talking about radical people who glorify rape and murder.

It is tedious that the conversation is carried out as if we're talking about people who drew the short straw on Tinder.

Agree

I dont discount social media though. I think that's a necessary componant of these movements. It's not the cause but it is required. As per usual I think regulation can help a lot.

Interesting.

I would think only a tiny percent of incels are that extreme and many 'so called incels' are ones who just can't get laid and are angry at the world and may loosely associate with the more aggressive strand you mention here.

yeah let's not confuse the incel problem with people the trolleys would call incels, There's a serious problem and there's a childish insult

ditto for nazis and everythign else

They're angry at themselves, it's projection. They think they are angry at women for rejecting them but the reality is they know they are unlikable and just dont have the willpower to work on themselves as people, so they misdirect their self-hatred on women so they dont have to accept responsibility for their own inaction.

How do you define "work on themselves as people"? Because a man can work on himself and it won't necessarily make him more attractive to women.

Take for example someone like Bill Gates, Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. These men have clearly worked on themselves as people (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't own companies worth billions of dollars) but I never hear women say these men are attractive or that they want to sleep with these men. Gates got divorced, Bezos got divorced, Musk's love life appears to be a train wreck. Yeah these men can buy women with their money, but can they buy genuine desire, affection and chemistry with women?

So are you saying these incels should work on themselves, but they should accept that women probably won't like them even after they have worked on themselves?

Trolly is actually fundamentally right and correct. he has some correct points.

but if he saw a dudes tinder from a top 10% guy on tinder and compared it to an average guy from tinder, he would understand the giga gap between the two and how massive the difficulty setting is between the two. ofc im talking about guys in their younger or mid 20's. no clue how its like to guys 30-35+. but there is a massive massive difference between the two profiles ainec from what ive seen

Sure.

But the diminishing of available partners does not help.

You could have angry or depressed or otherwise deficient men and women who could more easily find each other pre Apps like Tinder and things moving on line. As Chez rightly pointed out, online meeting, arguably the most superficial, is just going to be problematic for awkward men while creating opportunities for awkward women. Increasing opportunities for one group, while decreasing them for others will lead to increasing resentments.

Well first you have to discover your flaws. One look at the r/niceguys or sadcringe subs and you'll see there are some guys who need some SERIOUS self-help, and the thing is to even behave like that demonstrates they lack any self-awareness with the general public, let alone the opposite sex.

We dont really know anything about these guys and their personal lives. They may have all been quite charming but they're also human and some relationships will eventually dissolve.

You have to be willing to accept failure, and the interesting thing is by accepting this potential outcome they will in turn grow and actually become likable.

I don't know the details about the first two, but Bezo's is divorced because he got caught ****ing another woman. He may not be model or movie star attractive but I doubt he has much trouble attracting women, even at nearly 60.

If incels worked on themselves they would absolutely be more attractive. I am sure most people's dads are not fitness models or actors. Somehow they all attracted your moms. Most people are average and attract other average people even if they never end up having success on Tinder.