Guns are manufactured all over the place. Why do you assume cartels only use US manufactured weapons and why does it matter? If the US didn't manufacture guns they would get them from Russia.


Please cite your source that indicates most all weapons owned by the cartels are purchased legally in the US.

how do you think they are buying guns in the US and then smuggle it back? on the blackmarket? they have people everywhere who buy them for them. they smuggle cash out and guns in. family and friends buy them legally for them on any legal market. they have too much money to spend, and they are not going for used guns. just the best of the best that money can buy, and they can buy anyone and everything.



russia is far away...

I haven't been following the thread but do the pro-gun people here think there's no correlation between the high per capita gun ownership rates and the high per capita gun deaths rates in the US? The US has about 4 to 5 times more gun ownership than the next highest similarish countries like Canada, Finland, and Switzerland. It also has 4 to 5 times the amount of gun related deaths.


Do you think the high death rate is a problem? If so, how would you go about fixing it?

there were multiple "founding fathers are geniuses lol you think you're smarter than them on gun control" posts immediately preceding my post. one of if not the "smartest" president oversaw an assault rifle ban.

intelligence estimates are just that, estimates. there are several estimates you can find online of people's IQ's.

the idea that the guys that were in charge in the late 1700's were somehow significantly smarter than the guys in charge at any other point in history is pretty silly. they couldn't predict the world in 200+ years after they died and it's ridiculous to pretend like they did. although arguing with people that think a man that was 400+ years old literally built a giant boat is also probably fruitless.

Do you want to solve the death issue, or are you just persnickety about the chosen tool? Because those are two different topics.

A little over half of our gun deaths are suicides. What method do all the South Koreans use to do the deed? They have 0.1% of the USA's guns per capita, but roughly twice as many suicides.

What about murder, which makes up all but a very very tiny fraction of the remainder of our gun deaths? Mexico has less than 10% of the USA's guns per capita, but 600% more murdering.


Or are you somehow suggesting that the mere presence of guns is causing those deaths in which a gun was used?

I might be on board with the argument that some portion of those deaths could've been avoided if we made people work a bit harder for the desired outcome, but probably not many. I suspect the criminals will still have no problem getting their hands on guns despite your best efforts to crack down on the law abiding citizens. For those who can't, do we think American criminals have what it takes to adopt the Mexican cartel style of violence?

How many gangbangers hanging from freeway overpasses will it take before we have to have a national conversation about the availability of rope?

as an aside, im pretty sure the suicide rates in south korea are skewed by the elderly committing suicide so as not to force their children to take care of them because they have a poor social safety net for the elderly, and the INSANE pressure on highschoolers.. not exactly an analogous situation.

i think a longer waiting period to get any type of firearm would be a great factor in suicide prevention here in the US. but obviously there is already a significant amount of firearms already in society here

Maybe so.

Do we think those old timers are pulling out their unregistered Luger from the war memento chest?

Edit: Actually, I have no clue what the preferred sidearm for South Korean forces was. Luger was probably North Korea.

China is far away, too, but you don't seem to have a problem getting an iPhone at any US store or fentanyl from any US drug dealer. I don't know if that Vice propaganda piece proves that cartels are getting all their weapons through straw purchases in the US, but no doubt a percentage is coming from that. I'd imagine with their bankroll, getting crates of weapon (yes, new ones) shipments is relatively easier than straw purchasing in the US.

Thanks for replying. I don't think Mexico is at all comparable to the US, which is why I didn't include countries like it. Among other high income, developed countries more comparable to the US, the homicide rate from firearms is even worse than all gun deaths.

What about my other questions? Do you think the high death/homicide rate is a problem? If you do, how would you try to fix it?

Great foreign relations, a boom in the economy and a great reduction in crime. Plus would have been something like Obamacare if the Republicans hadn't been so obstructionist.

This is a truly garbage take.
Its like comparing the Library of Alexandria to the Peoria, IL Public Library since, welp, a library is a library and the newer ones have computers.
You're completely discarding the scale of their achievements, as evidenced by the performance of the United States relative to literally every other country. They did this running their very novel and innovative political system. The results spoke for themselves.

It was not perfect, but we need a '...but slavery' fallacy in arguments about the past since, ya know...in 3, 2, 1...

counterpoint.. i can access significantly more information from the peoria, IL public library than the egyptians could have ever dreamed of in their wildest dreams.

I think you're being very careless with your generalizations here.

The United States doesn't really have a homicide problem. Some portions of the United States have a homicide problem, and those problem areas probably don't mirror the image you have in your head of whatever European country you're trying to compare us against.

I think the rampant misbehavior in some of America's urban centers is a problem. I don't think that problem has anything to do with how many AR15s Jimbo from Tennessee has in his compound.

What to do about it boils down to two camps: more people in prison, and keep them there; and bribe people with government handouts in exchange for good behavior.

At no point in the discussion would I feel the need to comment on how many guns are in the hands of private US citizens, however.

Its clearly a huge problem but the issue is a perfect example of what a political impasse looks like since neither side will agree to the other's proposed curative terms.

Pro gun rights types would point to a time when firearm restrictions were trivial to non-existent, yet kids weren't shooting each other up in schools. They'd reference the degenerative effect of far left wing values has on a society and how gun rights require a high-trust, highly functional, values-oriented society to exist, which we haven't been since we decided the most pressing national issues were bathroom facilities for transvestites or football players kneeling for the national anthem. We've become what you'd expect from a society that has adopted these, particular values- degenerates, junkies and whatever values-holdouts in the middle-class are trying to keep the **** from spreading into whatever community they run into.

Anti-gun rights types are very correct when they note that gun availability IS indeed the core of the problem, but nothing they ever propose is workable and their ultimate agenda, in spite of their furious denials which will be discarded a decade later once sufficient 'progress' has been made, is banning most all firearms. Its not like a school shooting with a gun they now claim to not want to ban would have them standing up for THOSE gun owners rights...

So, its an unworkable mess that will take a generation willing to deal with the fallout from a mass firearm ban/confiscation.
Ain't gunna be pretty

how do you personally want to define the "homicide problem"? per capita or total number?

You can, but that isn't because of the innovations of the current librarian, which is basically the premise of your 'the guys in charge back then were no smarter than the guys in charge, now'.

Its kind of amusing you don't understand this and are making this argument.

no, i totally understand it. having more information is better, ALWAYS. everyone today is better equipped to make decisions than everyone before.

worshipping the founding fathers and signers as some type of super genius that foresaw modern problems when one of them literally died from sticking a whale bone up his penis is a mental health problem. the legal fiction of originalism is a massive pitfall for this country. and we somehow only cling to this delusion in law. you dont see medical originalists clinging to outdated information as if it's somehow more pure. those people rightfully get laughed out of modern discussions.

If getting rid of guns resulted in many more dead due to crime and political upheaval… oopsie!

Have you ever looked at that map the trace? There are Tons of shootings outside of cities.

Here's you dodging the topic of conversation with a strawman.

You compared the US Founders to any random gaggle of politicians from any given era. This was stupid, ill-informed and strongly indicates you don't even begin to comprehend the magnitude of what they, specifically, achieved during the founding. You just don't understand it (or you're so politically deranged that you're in denial, since they tend to represent a traditionalism that far leftists fear and resent)

I made the Library of Alexandria comparison to illustrate, you (again) failed to grasp- that Eratosthenes and Archimedes aren't comparable in historical importance than two librarians in Peoria, even though the latter has access to vastly better tools.

Long and short of it, you made a shitty take and are now doubling down with horseshit

yeah but none of this is accurate. i obviously do understand and especially considering i was an early american history major in undergraduate. traditionalism particularly when it comes to things of a legal nature like gun control is inherently stupid. and is rightfully considered nonsense in most other fields. i would much rather have whatever current librarian that is in peroria illinois with access to all of the information available to modern people make day to day decisions involving my life right now than any roman or greek philosopher in the library of alexandria. i do not give a **** about historical significance in this or really any real world discussion outside of maybe a discussion focused solely on "historical significance"

And yet within the context of the times--The FFs were the radical lefties

This is going to turn into a total vs per capita nightmare, and I don't think I have the energy for it today.

I tried to do some checking to give you a good faith answer, but in looking for the figures I kept finding racial justice sites claiming that cities get a bad rap and pointing out how high the murder rate is in rural America, only to discover that the counties cited are very sparsely populated. One guy killing his neighbor over a livestock dispute is enough to land the county in the upper double digits of murders per 100k charts.

WAAF.

too close to getting it so gotta stop..

Just think. If all guns magically disappeared, there would be no mass shootings, suicides would go down, armed robbery would be much less prevalent, and the fear of a home invasion could be mitigated by an aluminum bat. But goddam, those feral pigs.