The problem is far worse as the 'debate' barely even considered the pro's of remain.

Jalfrezi correctly observes the Murdoch/etc press trashing the EU for decades but the failure to make the case for the EU during those decades was down to us.

As was the failure to regulate Murdoch/etc far better. The list goes on and on and then we whine.

I'm going to make one last run at this then leave it as I'm beginning to get the impression that people are acting in bad faith. I feel that when people are merely quoting themselves to try and make it clear what was (or wasn't) said it's usually the time to log off and get a beer.

This does not mean I think that 'media sources merely cater to demands of opinions that have somehow magically and independently appeared in the minds of the public'

Clearly, it means that it's a two-way active relationship between a media source and its audience. It doesn't mean there are no media effects, merely that (I believe) we put too much emphasis on these at the expense of the audience's active needs and gratifications.

The pro case was made but it did fail because it argued a lot via absence rather than presence of positives.

It also had no messaging as effective as total and complete lie on a red bus.

There was also the internal tension in remain created by Cameron and other tories being remain, but unable to argue that austerity should be blamed for the decline in QoL for many voters.

The red bus messaage worked because people didn't wnat to pay into a orgnaisation they didn't want to be a member of. That's what decades of no pro-EU argument gets you - **** all. And then like idiots we fall into the trap of arguing about how much we pay to be members of a system they dont want to be members of.

Brexit was a very unlikely outcome that we spent decades allowing to fester until it became quite possible. Then we lost. then we whine. As with so much.

^ I find much to agree with in the last several posts. Murdoch was allowed way too much leeway. There were no positives spoken about the EU, just project fear. I personally tuned completely out when I heard Cameron parrot platitudes in one debate, and tuned into another debate a few days later to hear Sadiq Khan to say the EXACT SAME platitudes.

That's when it became clear the remain camp had nothing in the tank that would persuade me staying was better.

And I still haven't heard anything to persuade me we should have stayed.

What I have slowly changed on is the areas where the EU was a force for good. Coordinated education and science programs, that sort of thing. These are great, and a shame we can't be part of that bit. Pretty much every area that wasn't about political and financial union they seem to be ok on (except their early handling of covid, where the GFA meant nothing to them after years of them saying how important it was to them, and then how badly they let down the citizenry and no one has been held accountable for that fiasco), but the political/financial union just stinks to high heaven imo. And the stink is still there.

Jesus, come on. Your insistence that the remainer side failed because we just didn't want it enough, that we didn't explain things enough, that if only we'd tried harder to explain the benefits we would have won over hearts and minds, despite years of doing exactly that, is so tiresome. At what point do you blame brexiters for this mess? Or will it forever be remainers fault for not meeting them in the middle? (for info, the middle will still be an economic mess for us, and that's a best case scenario.)

The government are currently debating whether or not to trigger article 16. Probs the EU's fault for not caring enough about peace in Ireland though, i'm sure.

That says more about you than about the arguments for staying.

This seems circular. The messaging intended to make people want to leave the EU worked because people wanted to leave the EU.

Impact of Brexit on economy 'worse than Covid' The Chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility has said.

"Project fear."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59070020

still no benefits for staying described, after many posts. Other than 'we already told you', and a link that is basically project fear. Telling us how bad it's going to be.

And you guys detect no problem, do you.

lol.

There is another side to the argument about how leave failed to make its argument.

Which is of course the nature of the Leave argument.

I could have been persuaded maybe by a technocratic leave argument, which focused on the Neo Liberal nature of the EU, and how it limits the Left from technocratic solutions and policies to implement its long terms social goals.

In this reality however, such arguments were almost silent and instead we got a howling rage filled gale of technocratic falsehoods and literal technocratic nonsense arguments such as lets leave the largest ever free trade block to achieve more free trade, racism and nationalism.

My vote for Remain was just as much a vote against the black as night ignorance of the Leave argument as it was a vote for the EU.

So every prediction post Brexit by an independent body that says Brexit will have negative impacts is project fear.

That is the dumbest thing I will read in a while. Bravo.

Again we are not obliged to repeat ourselves to you for the umpteenth time.

You can keep pretending and lying about such arguments having never been made, that is about your level of integrity and intellectual honesty.

If only we'd tried harder to win over hearts and minds, right?

Lol, you still fail to detect a problem. I have told you again and again the problem, and you still can't see it. Instead of actually explaining anything, you insist it's already been done, and intimate the 'stupid' line. Well, at least you seem to be past throwing in 'racist' these days, maybe you'll eventually drop the 'stupid' slurs eventually and then actually try a dialogue rather than a diatribe.

I'm not saying we didn't want it enough. I'm saying we did **** all for decades to explain what we wanted and why while lettign the other side win hearts and minds.

We lost the argument and the tragedy is that we barely even attempted to make it.

Blaming the other side for winning the argument - Sorry, no I insist that is a mistake of epic proportions.

Yes exactly let's try and win hearts and minds.

Try much harder and for decades and generations cos that's where most of the battle is won. And with policies/actions when the opportunity arises.

I understand the dishonest attempt at sophistry you are attempting fully.

Unless, on your demand, I pointlessly repeat again an argument already made to ad infinitum you win.

I have tried reasonable argument and dialogue with you, admittedly it was a long time ago, since then you have demonstrated your stupidity on a regular basis and from time to time been absolutely racist. This is why reasonable argument failed.

Im not going to reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into.

Those are the facts.

utter nonsense. It was explained over and over again. It was simply filed under Project Fear.

All this dont mention X about the Referendum is just an attempt by DB et al to obscure the fact the poster bellow is emblematic of much of the Leave campaign, and thus posters such as DB are of course slightly damned by association in a way they dont feel comfortable about, so there is a concerted effort to never bring such realities of the leave campaign into the light and discuss such.

That's just about the price and once it was left to cameron under pressure to call a referendum then we were down to dodging bullets. That was a ludicrous abdication lasting for decades

Politics is not won by telling people why their hearts and minds should change at the last minute. That's awful politcs that amounts to dodging bullets. Even worse when they're called stupid bigots at the same time but awful anyway.

Leave won by a fairly small %, its safe to assume their were a few swing voters, and there was large % of non voters.

So it was all done and dusted and an effective "last" minute campaign would never have worked anyway is an argument that fails to convince as there was plenty of % to work with.

Does it matter that that argument is unconvincing as it isn't being made?

Maybe if i said 'playing Russian roulette' instead of 'dodging bullets' it would be a bit clearer.

The point is their was plenty of scope for "changing hearts and minds at the last minute." via an effective campaign.

Your post seems to imply a landslide victory for Leave.

No it doesn't. Not remotely.

It says leave had a serious chance when they shouldn't have.