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07-21-2012 , 11:54 AM
After 18 hours i get back my rights to play. No big chance to win but there is still hope
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating?
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MicroMillions - is stalling cheating?
07-21-2012 , 12:53 PM
timebank scum itt

Last edited by Tryst_; 07-21-2012 at 12:53 PM. Reason: ligue
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 01:05 PM
My only question is this:

What's the rule on using the timebank to stall? If someone can point to a clear rule that the OP broke, then hey, great, lower the banhammer.

If no one can, I think more people should be siding with the OP. Is stalling annoying? Yes. What's even more annoying? Getting banned for something that isn't against the rules.

Pokerstars makes the game client. They set the timebanks, and make the game rules.

Either set the rules more firmly and apply the punishment across the board for those that violate said rules, or leave guys like this alone. Singling out one guy and lowering the banhammer on him for something tons of people do AND isn't technically against the rules.... what a horrible precedent.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretorian_st
Man - youre to fishy to win anything fair. Soft allows chipdumping, soft allows to calling ppl names in chat and what? U think this is ok, cause soft allows that? Youre fish - deal with it.
Yes, but there are prohibitions about chipdumping in the T&C and sites also warn about chat abuse. There's nothing in the T&C that says you can't timebank as often as software allows.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 01:43 PM
I believe this is included in some points of T&C. There are some points about gameflow etc.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starvingwriter82
My only question is this:

What's the rule on using the timebank to stall? If someone can point to a clear rule that the OP broke, then hey, great, lower the banhammer.

If no one can, I think more people should be siding with the OP. Is stalling annoying? Yes. What's even more annoying? Getting banned for something that isn't against the rules.

Pokerstars makes the game client. They set the timebanks, and make the game rules.

Either set the rules more firmly and apply the punishment across the board for those that violate said rules, or leave guys like this alone. Singling out one guy and lowering the banhammer on him for something tons of people do AND isn't technically against the rules.... what a horrible precedent.

You make a valid point. I know that many people probably do it and there is no rule in their terms of service. I think OP should be compensated for being banned.

Pokerstars needs to either update their terms of service or allow people to stall.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurjeff
You make a valid point. I know that many people probably do it and there is no rule in their terms of service. I think OP should be compensated for being banned.

Pokerstars needs to either update their terms of service or allow people to stall.
+1
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starvingwriter82
My only question is this:

What's the rule on using the timebank to stall? If someone can point to a clear rule that the OP broke, then hey, great, lower the banhammer.

If no one can, I think more people should be siding with the OP.
If OP would post the actual email exchange, as has been repeatedly suggested, it would be possible to have a sensible discussion about this rather than speculation.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 03:31 PM
Why wouldn't they just take away his timebank?
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G
First off a lot of hypocrites in this thread. Claiming fish find it annoying that he stalls... they'd also find it annoying that you use a HUD, and also find it annoying when they lose. It's in the rules - Deal with it.
You can't stop fish losing, or people using HUDs though (assuming you want to give them instant access to their hand histories)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G

I can't understand how Pstars can change the rules arbitrarily half way through a contest like this. They put the rules in how points are allocated, and they were different then other some of their other Series and because OP is using an optimal strategy they think they can close his account???

Anyone recall those to Germans who angle shooted the the 70 billionth hand by playing HU and folding auto folding to each other... they got the prize.

BTW this timebanking till the very end strategy was done at a Pstars Live Event on the APPT Tour a few years back by a player who was chip leader with 2 tables left and wanted the other table to play more hands (they weren't in hand for hand yet) and he took the clock for a full minute every hand and nothing was done about it despite both tables complaining.
I feel both of the above situations were handled poorly, but there is a difference between stars not acting in those cases and acting here, in this instance they issued a warning first, and then acted when they felt the warning went ignored.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzikibawol
After 18 hours i get back my rights to play. No big chance to win but there is still hope
GL and stop using the time bank or we'll see a new thread.
"PS account locked for second time!"
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 04:00 PM
Bad job pokerstars, especially in this case, timing is part of the MTT tactics. I can understand stalling in cash is bad for the game, but in MTTs its purely tactics.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 05:04 PM
Okay imma assume the Logic of PStars based on the information we have. Apparently this guy timebank so much that it got him notice by other players and PStars. He got warned and he assumes 10 but i wonder how long it took to get hit to 10. So PStars felt it violated the spirit and the integrity of the game. So he got his account suspended and assume he does it again enough times i guess it'll be sort of a 3 strikes!
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 05:37 PM
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating?

NO
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 05:49 PM
Before you attack the OP , there's no rules against it , is there ?

I use the timebank when I'm close to ITM , I think this is normal for a mtt player to do. Its part of the tactics.

Now if you do it 50 times and get a warning , and then you do it only 10 times , Pokerstars should not ban you .

Maybe its annoying for the players at the table , but its up to the player if he wants to use the timebank or not.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroBob
Don't want the player using (timebank) all the way? Give him less freaking time ldo. Don't give him time he's not actually allowed to use.
this
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating?

NO
Might not be cheating but if other players a complaining then he is ruining the game for them. Obvs enough of them complained for him to get an email. He should have learned his lesson but he kept doing it.
Think about this from Stars view. You got 1 jackass ruining the game for 10 other people. Would you rather have 10 angry customers or 1?
Easy decision for PS and I agree with them.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madison79
Might not be cheating but if other players a complaining then he is ruining the game for them. Obvs enough of them complained for him to get an email. He should have learned his lesson but he kept doing it.
Think about this from Stars view. You got 1 jackass ruining the game for 10 other people. Would you rather have 10 angry customers or 1?
Easy decision for PS and I agree with them.
Its irrelevant whether you complain or one million people complain. If you want to address the problem you change the rules. Its never been clearly stated that stalling is against the rules afaik. Despite that fact, if OP received an email that clearly stated he and anyone else using this tactic needs to quit this practice or else the consequences we saw would occur, he should have quit. If not, then he did nothing wrong despite your personal opinion, which as I stated, is irrelevant when determining the rules of a game.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madison79
Might not be cheating but if other players a complaining then he is ruining the game for them. Obvs enough of them complained for him to get an email. He should have learned his lesson but he kept doing it.
Think about this from Stars view. You got 1 jackass ruining the game for 10 other people. Would you rather have 10 angry customers or 1?
Easy decision for PS and I agree with them.
Can't please everyone in this world. **especially online poker players**

Each and every player that plays a MTT/SNG/Ring Game/Play Money on Poker Stars is given a time bank to which they can use in any way is deemed necessary. The OP payed their tournament buy in + fee and that is all Poker Stars should be concerned about the "FEE" as a "customer"..

Would a couple of half frozen fish b!tch!ng about a time banker and flooding the chat with zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz really quit online poker because a player is trying to ladder climb utilizing their time bank to get ITM or run deeper while the zzzzzzzz brigade bust each other out? No! Would it make them angry? Yes! Is the zzzzzzz brigade going to register for another tournament after they tank call bust aipf UTG with A4o for 75bbs mid/late while the time banker is keeping a 14bb stack alive? Yes!
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 08:13 PM
I wrote about this years ago when multiple people were max stalling every hand which killed the table as we were only able to play maybe 1/3 the number of hands as other tables which meant the chips on our table would lag far behind.

Granted this reply was from 2008 so I have no idea how they have updated it since (or if they did). They should have some items in their terms and conditions if they are going to warn and ban people, and I do think warning and eventual temp banning is appropriate for frequent abusers (but it needs to be in the terms)

Their somewhat eye-rolling email from 2008 on this exact issue:


Thank you for writing about this matter. We value customer feedback
and are always listening and responding to your concerns.

Technically it is not against the rules to take up to the full 25
seconds offered (35 seconds in selected No Limit and Pot Limit ring
games) in which to act. However, if someone is regularly using the
full amount of time to act for basic folding decisions, we will send
them a non-binding request asking them to be more considerate,
perhaps playing in fewer games or paying better attention to the game.

In the meantime, you may want to look for our games listed with the
word "(fast)" in the name. In these games a player has far less time
to act and the games are generally much speedier. Multi-tablers tend
to avoid them, and thus you may find these more to your liking.
These "Fast" games are available at most limits and in most games.

Thank you for choosing PokerStars. Please do not hesitate to let us
know any time you need anything.

Regards,

Chris B
PokerStars Support Team
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thStreetHog
Its irrelevant whether you complain or one million people complain. If you want to address the problem you change the rules. Its never been clearly stated that stalling is against the rules afaik. Despite that fact, if OP received an email that clearly stated he and anyone else using this tactic needs to quit this practice or else the consequences we saw would occur, he should have quit. If not, then he did nothing wrong despite your personal opinion, which as I stated, is irrelevant when determining the rules of a game.
Even if it's not clearly stated in the rules he was warned. He could have followed PS wishes but he chose not too. His fault!
We are customers of PS. They don't have to let us play on their site. They can kick a person off if they want to. Just like it says right here:

2.3. PokerStars reserves the right to suspend, discontinue, modify, remove or add to the Service in its absolute discretion with immediate effect and without an obligation to provide you with notice where we consider it necessary to do so, including (for example) where we receive information that you have entered into any self-exclusion agreement with any gambling provider or where we deem it necessary for the management, maintenance or update of the Software and we shall not be liable in any way whatsoever for any loss suffered as a consequence of any decision made by PokerStars in this regard.

I made it bold since you have a hard time reading things.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-21-2012 , 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel

Would a couple of half frozen fish b!tch!ng about a time banker and flooding the chat with zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz really quit online poker because a player is trying to ladder climb utilizing their time bank to get ITM or run deeper while the zzzzzzzz brigade bust each other out? No!
Wait, you actually believe no recreational players are put off playing online by stalling?

Maybe you don't realise how annoying it is for 1 tablers.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-22-2012 , 01:02 AM
I've always thought the best way to combat stalling from a theoretical point of view is to have a dynamic time bank system. If you've drained the normal pre-time bank period more than say twice recently, then your non time banked time to act gets reduced, eventually to near nothing forcing you to use your time bank. The non time banked time will eventually replenish itself over time. It could be a slightly more complicated algorithm than what I just said (i.e. decreasing leniency near bigger bubble periods).

The only problem I can see is mass multitablers that start to time out then really start to time out - so this could be implemented into the algorithm to give mass multi-tablers more leniency.

Fairly complicated, but optimal imo.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-22-2012 , 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzikibawol
I am 2nd in rank micromillions and i was using timebank few times, player "dunkmeister2" wrote to pokerstars that i am doing it and they SHOT DOWN my acount for two days. I am off from ligue now, what can i do?



Is about ligue on pokerstars,
I have 2nd place at now in race for PCA paggage
and my acount is off for 2 days and message from ps:

It has come to our attention, that despite a previous warning,
you have again intentionally delayed the play in the Micro
Million Events.

Event 2012070067 10 time outs (we can provide hand history of
these hands if you want)

Our goal at PokerStars is to provide an enjoyable environment for
all of our players, and stalling tournaments is not acceptable
behaviour.

But Previous warning was that i can use timebank if it is my strategy but 30 40 or 50 timeouts llike i had before is to much.
I feel your pain. I completely understand the strategy and have employed it myself (as well as many other users) in the PSO League for months. Thats why I'm so surprised that they went as far as to ban you. I feel we should be free to use every fair weapon in our arsenal to our advantage. If other players have access to this, it should constitute as fair.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
07-22-2012 , 02:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theskillzdatklls
I've always thought the best way to combat stalling from a theoretical point of view is to have a dynamic time bank system. If you've drained the normal pre-time bank period more than say twice recently, then your non time banked time to act gets reduced, eventually to near nothing forcing you to use your time bank. The non time banked time will eventually replenish itself over time. It could be a slightly more complicated algorithm than what I just said (i.e. decreasing leniency near bigger bubble periods).

Fairly complicated, but optimal imo.
I think Stars are using something similar.
You start off with say 90 secs and if you use it up you're left with 14 or 12 secs. Depending on tournament format, players sometimes get time added in which case your timebank resets plus additional time added.
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating? Quote
MicroMillions - is stalling cheating?
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MicroMillions - is stalling cheating?

      
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