Good Players do play to win. OP is playing to win the leaderboard not just a single MTT and using the best point oriented strategy to do so.

Did they specify what number of timeouts is allowed? 9, 10, 11?
If not, how do they expect you to know if you had surpassed the limit?
And was this limit applied to everyone or just you? In the last 2 days I've been in several leaderboard MTTs on Pstars and several players timeouted more than 10x and I don't believe any action has been taken against them.

I think you should file a complaint.

I spoke to a TD of a major B&M poker room about how he would deal with a similar situation.

He said that repeated stalling does come up from time to time in a live setting.

The most important thing for him is to maintain the integrity of the tournament. If he thinks that a player is abusing any specific rule, he will do what he feels is best for the integrity of the tournament. He has the right to look at a player's hand to see what he had and the type of decision that was needed.

TDs have several options which include:

1. Warning a player that if he continues to stall, all tables will be put on a hand for hand basis whether or not the tournament is one player away from the bubble.

2. They may warn the player that he will be put on an automatic 30 second clock every time it is his turn to act. Even that can be reduced if he takes the entire 30 seconds every hand.

3. If players tell the TD they will take a minute to act every hand, they will be warned that a penalty of one round of missed hands may be issued.

4. Disqualification can be threatened. Normally, this solves the problem, but round penalties would probably be effected before disqualification.

He stated that not everything can be covered in a rule book. Sometimes decisions need to be made specific for a particular tournament on a particular day. One player abusing a grey area and upsetting nine other happy customers would not be tolerated. He would first be warned, and, if he didn't comply, he would be penalised in some way.

Having now heard this, it would appear to me that the content of the warning e-mail/s is vital in this instance.

This.

Slightly OT, but i remember in the 10k on Paddpowerpoker, this very dirty scummy gentleman kept timing out for literally 30 mins after the bubble, got to the stage were i went from 20bbs (Which is huge on Ipoker) down to 5 bbs, anyway, i naturally tilt called my stack with AT and lost v KQ... I was so pissed about it, that i complained to live support, and he replied with something like 'lol, ok, i will do my best to pass your complaint on, but i cant guarantee you they will take it seriously'

So, im very impressed Pokerstars took this seriously, i don't care if some defend it by 'tactics', its just scumbagism behaviour and destroys others chances of winning, because it becomes a turbo, with 3/6 bbs stacks.

You were pissed about calling with AT with 5 BBs left? There's a decent chance you weren't understanding what support guy was saying when he lol'ed at you.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, i take it you like to time out to get the extra $5 than? Probably not, actually, judging by your very impressive post count you don't play poker much, I complained that the player was timing out every hand he was folding, and eventually with the blinds so high, and our stacks were 4/7bbs i had to be all in with AT. He LOL'D, at my complaining about the scumbag DELIBERATELY STALLING THE TOURNAMENT, you know, in other words, messing up the structure.

On the surface this seems like an entirely ridiculous ruling. I would like to see the emails, but I can't imagine anything in them that could make this fair, unless most everyone on the micromillions leaderboard who stalled near a bubble was issued a similar warning / possible ban.

Depending on the structure of a tournament stalling ranges from a tiny edge (regspeed MTT) to utmost importance (DoN). I'm not familiar with how this leaderboard worked, but from the sounds of it huge value was placed on mincashing, similar to a DoN. OP was near enough banned due to others complaining he plays too good.

did u win

In most micro-mtt's, you still get idiots from Northern Europe stalling during the Hand for Hand stage. Also if you play H4H from twenty players out then MAAAAN would it take a long time. Too long.

In an MTT scenario...this affects every player at the table. You have less opportunities to accumulate chips.

I personally think you have to look at the intent here....just as rulings in a live environment would. The purpose of the timebank is to use when you have what you consider to be a difficult decision....not for stalling your way into a mincash...which affects every other player at your table and their ability to chip up.

I play my hands according to hand strength, chip position and table position in a timely fashion unless my decision is critical (ie...I know I need a double up to get ITM....and I have AT UTG...will it get through? Can I wait another orbit here with my stack?..etc..etc). If I go with the hand and bust out...so be it.

There are lots of things in poker that are not technically cheating, but are definitely scummy d**k moves.

It's not cool to me...and I wish all online sites would take the issue head on and shorten time banks or whatever is best for all players. I know on lock you have like 75 seconds per decision. That's 75 seconds x however many timebanking idiots of my life I will never get back.

Do I think the temp ban was fair? Hell yes, the guy was a repeat offender after being warned about the tactic via email.

Oh, and to me...the excuse that "everybody does it" doesn't make it right or good for the game.

/rant

I have to agree with the posts like this one.

I haven't played online in quite some time (4/15 a year and a half ago-sigh) but I remember this going on all the time. I play a LOT of live tournements now in the Los Angeles as well as Vegas area and see this happening there as well. Before it gets to hand-for-hand you see tables all over the place with short stacks taking up to 5 minutes+ unless someone calls the clock on them. If I am a large stack - I just play as fast as possible to combat it - if I am a short stack - I don't take those same lines (long stalling) but I certainly don't rush.

I do remember when I played online in turbos sngs - if I had a large stack - I would definitely take my time each and every hand letting the blinds climb higher and higher for the short stacks as part of my strat. I did not "time out" but I used the time bank for my benefit. Many others did as well. And when I found myself short stacked and a larger stack was doing it - I did not complain - I knew it was part of the game.

There are many ways to use what is offered to your benefit. In OPs case he was not even "bending" the rules - much less breaking them - as THERE IS NO RULE?!

As far as him getting warnings - well ok I guess PS was deciding to start changing the rules?? And again THERE WERE NO RULES to change (much less enforce). If it were me - and I got that warning - I would definitely NOT do it again. OP chose too 10 more times (and we don't know the exact situation but I'm sure PS decided that he disregarded their warnings). Again - if they warned me - I would stop it! I have a hard time feeling sorry for OP for disregarding the warning - but I have to at least side with him that he was not breaking any rules and to be banned at this point is crazy?!!

If they decide to change the Terms then so be it. But they need to do it across the board and make everyone aware of the new rule. If it was a new policy then great - the stalling would be over and never an issue again. Until they do that - then it just seems impossible that they punish one person for this and not the other 1000s that do it everyday online and live when the money bubble (or FT bubble or whatever bubble) approaches.

-CH

Ummm what??

I am not defending the action at all. And yes I am stating that it happens all of the time in both live and online mtts. But I'm not at all saying that I'm for it!?!!

What I was trying to state (I guess it didn't come across very well) - is that there is no rule in place at the time against this action. None. And for that reason I do not see how the actions can be punished.

I also stated that if I were the OP then I would definitely have heeded the warnings prior. And since he did not - I have no sympathy for him. But it's just crazy odd that they can in fact enforce a rule (which there is none) against him and not to the thousands of other players who do the same thing.

You clearly did not read my post - maybe you just read one line and then decided it was all blah blah blah (your words - and usually the words of someone who may be a little ignorant or at least a little lazy and doesn't want to read what someone else has posted).

If it were up to me - I would definitely create a rule regarding timing out stalling at bubble. But it's not up to me. I am totally against this. But until they decide to create such rule - then OP has not broken any rules.

And as stated by others itt - maybe we do not have the full picture on what was really told to op - he did not supply us with the actual corrospondence. So again - hard to feel sorry for him. I don't. But I also can't really comprehend the actions of the site against him.

Anyway - whatever mate (103offsuit). You just look pretty bad posting about "idiots" when you don't even read or understand what someone is posting...

Good luck though -

Wow - just wow!!?

Oh and great 12th post for someone who joined the site the other day.

You might want to be a little more careful in your choice of words calling people "idiots".

But great information in your thoughtful post!!!

Oh and welcome to the site!

If it was a normal tourney I'd be on side with Pstars. They warned him and he apparently didn't listen.

What makes this unique is OP's primary goal was to win the TLB for this series (not win any specific tourney). He thought out a careful strategy to optimize his chances that weren't breaking any rules and mid way through the series Pstars decided to change the rules on him which greatly reduce his chances of winning the TLB.

The only way I see agreeing with Pstars's decision is if OP was intentionally disconnecting to add to his timebank... and since OP has not provided emails I get the feeling this is what occured.


OP- How did you end up finishing in the TLB? And once again please show emails in the interest of transparency.

Obviously want to see the emails.

We do have the OP's word on this though, he addressed it earlier:

Folding in the red isn't even dipping into the timebank. If this is 100% accurate it's an absurdly harsh ruling. If however it is untrue and OP was tactically disconnecting, yeah a ban is of course justified.

Wow! That was big! Thanks for this post 103off.

For the record - I quite often do not read entire posts (but then again - I don't think I would ever "quote" what I did not fully read - in my next post and then berate it!!)

No worries - and I totally understand frustration when it comes to topics like this.

Welcome to the site.

Truly a shame as it seems like you would have been a huge asset to the site. Gl with your schooling.

He mad?

I had tried to be nice earlier - and then what I saw what was his "to be last post" (remains to be seen - lol) - I was going to comment something similar but then thought I'd just leave it alone...

But yep!

Hallelujah...common sense comes to the rescue!

Anyone that would condone this as an above board "tactic" or "strategy" is either an idiot timebanker, or just has no clue about the integrity of the game.

I just suffered through an online tourney (stone bubbled it in 5th of course) with one idiot at my table taking the full minute plus EVERY mutherf****n hand.

It's ridiculous and would rarely if ever be tolerated in a live setting if the person were called out on it.

Just because the software allows you to do it....doesn't make it acceptable. Just because it's commonly done online close to the bubble...doesn't make it acceptable.

Grow a sack and play your hand and see if you can use your skill and a little luck to make the money.

Most of the stalling is the pre-timebank time.. if you have 120s in timebank, but use your 12sec pre-timebank stall every hand for 30 hands, then 3/4 of your stalling was not timebank.

My solution: preflop, make the action time 8 seconds and disable timebank, unless the pot is 3bet already

To the haters - stalling is absolutely +EV if you're short stacked on the bubble. By requesting people not stall, you're basically asking them to hand you equity, why not see if they'll transfer you $50 at the same time.

interesting.
of course I would love to see the emails as well and/or a post from Steve or Bryan on this matter.

I would love to see stars taking action against stalling. Maybe this is a clumsy beginning. I haven't played a single tourney where I didn't have stallers at the table. Until now I assumed it was just a part of their strategy, and while annoying for others, well within the right of the players who used it. It just gets extra annoying when people keep stalling during h4h....

so yes, please, do something about this but do it in a systematical way that addresses this in all tourneys by tweaking the time bank in some way. When you send out the message to all players that this new rule is now in place to enhance our playing experience, maybe also mention that stalling doesn't make any bloody sense during h4h, just in case.

If the situation was like OP described, I would say it was handled very poorly.

edit:
something like this

I think that if you were watching the other tables, stalling could be advantageous even during h4h.

If asking them to play poker and maintain the integrity of the game is -EV...then they should take up backgammon or something else.

I can't believe we are even discussing NOT playing poker as a viable strategy.

I am not asking anyone to hand me equity. I am asking them to outplay me and not hinder my chances of moving up the money ladder because the blinds are going up relative to my stack and I am seeing 30 less hands an hour because of their idiocy.

This thread is tilting me so much...Hope to see all you "timebank advantage" playas at a live table someday. Rest assured you will be in a conversation with the floor man.