achen, MTTs

Why Not.
MasterOfPoo8 (18man/90man sngs)

Updated list/numbers?

Iam in, username czechpepe. 200-1k 6m hypers, sne 3rd year in a row.

I'm in (Apathy123)

I'm in. Ben86, highstakes PLO.

I'm in. Danny98765. 500k VPP in 2015.

hsmtt, 2k-5k 6max SNGs

xposting from nvg: In defense of our value as pros to the site:

One of the arguments I keep seeing against a strike, and against our position in general as players, is that the sites do not want winners at all. The suggestion is that only net depositors bring value to a site, an idea which I’d like to put to bed.

1) The suggestion that the rake paid by net winners is unimportant to the site’s bottom line, is without question false. In games that run with only pros, the site is strictly taking rake from only winning pros, and they are not depleting recreational players accounts. These games happen all the time. At medium to high stakes sit and goes, and cash games, reg only games happen constantly. At 6 max and heads up sit and goes, pros fight for lobby space. At 6 max cash games, pros start shorthanded games all the time. The idea that the rake that they pay during this process is not valued by the site is preposterous.

1a: The ZOOM model is a really good example of the value that net winners bring to the rake. Suppose a recreational player starts a regular table at 5/10 PLO, and 5 winning regulars join him. The player will, in theory at least, play for some time, lose all his money and move on. In the meantime Stars has raked somewhere in the vicinity of 5bb/100 from all players involved. Now consider what happens if that player started a ZOOM pool? He sits in, and now maybe 10-15 pros join the pool. The recreational player will on average lose his money over the same number of hands most likely (unless for some reason the ZOOM players are tougher, or softer, but there is no need to consider that now). In the meantime, regs have now played many more hands against one another in the fight to play at tables with that same rec. Stars has made significantly more from the ZOOM table, and its coming directly from the pros, and not the recrational player. The recreational player is a catalyst for the game to start, but once it does the sites profit tremendously from the pros.

2) The notion that there is a clear divide between a “depositor” and "withdrawer” is without any understanding of what is actually happening in online poker from year to year. Many games run around players who consider themselves pros but are worse than the regulars at a given stake, or around pros who used to play at a high level and the game has since passed them by. People need to understand that for every example of a winning and successful pro, there are probably many times more wannabe pros that are struggling to make it, and are either kept afloat by rakeback, or simply don’t make it at all. A strategy that aims to attack the high volume and successful pro, is likely attacking many more losers. I lost around 400k last year playing HSPLO, much of which was in my most common game (25/50). How do I figure into this model where the depositors are so valued and pros not? I have a close friend who decided to try to get SNE this year by playing SNGs. He has lost several hundred thousand in his attempt (after rakeback). Guys like him who think they are winning, and either aren’t or are running bad, will not even attempt a year like he did. Under any model, someone like him is of tremendous value to the site, providing liquidity in volume, redistributing money that he deposited, and generating enormous amounts rake. I sincerely doubt his story is unique either, you hear many stories of pros trying and failing to reach SNE goals, or getting absolutely crushed in the process of achieving it.

3) Pros provide a valuable form of liquidity to the site. A recreational player who deposits on Stars and gives it a go, will have a vastly superior experience than on another site. Aside from the software, they will have their choice of game, almost regardless of what it is. 4 AM on a saturday, and you want to play 2/5 zoom PLO? Sure. You want to play a 50 dollar sit and go? Sure. 100/200 LHE? The list goes on. At everything at mid stakes and higher, games will not run without pros. There is nothing resembling the liquidity needed for games to run. Even at low stakes the volume would be tremendously low. At MTTs Stars proudly celebrates the size of their prize pools. The presence of huge prize pools at Stars over other sites is instant marketing. You cannot have one without the other. If you want to entice new players with the massive size of the site and it’s games, you must have pros driving the volume.

4) This one is a bit vague, but I think addresses the big picture that many are failing to see. The idea that the recreational players and net depositors are just gambling addicts who don’t care about anything is plainly false. A huge % of recreational players are seeking to become a pro, or are at least inspired by stories of pros. At the very least they are attempting to win. Stars clearly celebrates the idea of winning at poker, when it is convenient for them to do so. They love the idea of marketing on twitch to gamers. We have all heard Jason Somerville tell his listeners that in poker you can make way more than at any video games. How many of the people who deposit upon hearing that will actually win? Very few surely, but in selling that dream you are attracting new players. And that dream isn’t a lie, at least it didn’t used to be. Marketing and catering games to recreational players is one thing, but a policy that seeks to eliminate winners while at the same time promoting the idea of winning is doomed for failure. New players want to become winners, and winners have to exist for them to have any expectation of that. The marketing of poker practically writes itself. It’s a game of gambling, but one where the best players consistently win. That is the allure of poker, not just the gambling aspect. All of this ties into the clearly absurd idea that Stars has no need for pros. The prospect of winning at poker is what justifies it’s existence, and justifies the obsession people have for it. Take away the ability to win, and you undermine the essence of what makes poker special.

in - sarald - zoom200 and 500

In
gonzalod22 - S&G avg bi 20$

In. Much respect to you Dani. Thank you.

Might it be a good idea to have players in observer chat informing people playing during the boycott? Not everyone is in tune.

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed, but it may be something to think about.

(600k VPP in 2015)

In. PrtyPsux HSMTT's, Cash games.

In, bubbleoutcas husng $100

Solid Idea AceSpade11

I'm in: Cerebral312 (1k NL/PLO)

In. impact69. Mtts abi $15

In , ActionFreak plo2k.

Pow****ad MTT & 180 SNG

Hey guys, I wanted to add a post helping to clarify what is going on with the strike. A lot of people on twitter have been asking me for details of what this strike is about, and I wanted to get a summary post down to direct people to. Feel free to critique anything I have written. I also am going to x-post this to NVG. That forum gets a lot more traffic than this one and I'd like to see some more visibility. I'll ask everyone there to come here to sign up, so that it's easier to keep track of the numbers.

What is happening?

PokerStars/Amaya has announced an aggressive overhaul of the 2016 VIP system. They have deceived SNE players about benefits they would receive, are discontinuing the SNE program, and they have completely removed all rewards for high stakes (5/10+) cash games. While PokerStars claims the changes are to provide relief to recreational players, there is no such change happening. They are telling their players outright lies, and we will not stand for it. Beyond that, it follows an ongoing trend that PokerStars/Amaya has been taking in recent years. A site that was once clearly for the players, has completely lost sight of that.

I did my best to outline the changes and why they are so outrageous in this post:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=283

What are we doing about it?

We are organizing a strike/boycott of PokerStars from December 1st-3rd, starting at 12:01 AM EST. We ask everyone who values the game of poker at all, recreational or pro, to show their support. We especially ask those who put in high volume on Stars to do so. Please do not play a hand of poker on PokerStars for those 72 hours. It goes without saying that games are likely to be softer on those days, and we hope that you can resist the urge to play because of that. I truly believe that these changes will bring about devastating effects to the online poker community.

What’s the point of a strike?

No one has any illusions of sinking PokerStars stock with a 3 day strike, or bringing down the company. That’s not what this is about. This is a demonstration of force, and an effort to show PokerStars that we are a body of players, and not just individuals. We have the ability to act as one, to make our voices heard, and to rally players behind a fair grievance. PokerStars has made it clear they do not respect us, so we need to demonstrate that we are able to fight back with volume and force.

Why should Stars care? Don’t they want less pros on the site anyway?
I very thoroughly address that here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1387

Where do I sign up?
Here! Please sign, preferably with your PS name, VPP count, and what games you play. And beyond that, please tell your friends.

If anyone has any questions at all, please ask. Ask me, ask this thread, just get involved! I want everyone to be passionate about this. PokerStars has got to understand that we will not take this lying down. The fight is on, this is the first battle and we will continue fighting as long as we need to.

Thank you,
Dani Stern

In ibeatyou7894, mtts abi 10$

I'm in. Grazvis1. 650k VPPs in 2015. 600-2K PLO.

I'm in. MrSweets28 - HSPLO and nosebleed 2-7 TD when appropriately tilted. 400k VPPs in 2015.

Ansky, it looks like you are sort of leading the charge here since your voice carries quite a bit. Many thanks for that btw, but I'm curious what can be done once this strike is over. Seems this is leading to some sort of unionization. Is that something you want to see happen? Or would you be interested in heading such a thing?

AlexKP - 2/5-50/100 PLO and highstakes MTT - 910.000 VPP in 2015