i find this hard to believe... almost like theres something called variance

Chat quotes I loved last night.

"You're a bot"
"No I'm not"
Calls an in with 67 and loses to my Jacks
Instant accepts rematch

"You work for PS"
"No unless it's unpaid and no ones told me"
Get it in with two overs and a flush draw against his middle pair, spike the over on the river.
Instant accepts rematch

"This is so rigged"
Starts shoving every hand to which I fold till I get AJ and win with A high
Instant accepts rematch

"This is so rigged"
Limp folds nearly every hand, other than the occasional shove.
Takes a while but eventually get all in with a straight v's his two pair
Instant accepts rematch

"This is so ****ing rigged"
Eventually sucks out with 10/10 against QQ.
Instant quits

Wtf. So accept rematch when imaginary rig is against you, but decline when the imaginary rig has now switched sides.

I don't get riggie logic.

I remember when I used to play HUSNGs rigtards on tilt brought the most profit.

brb lose AJ to 22 and open shove every hand preflop next game

brb insta rematch after every lose

brb start every match with "this is so rigged"

brb insta quit when get one win out of 8 games

brb brb

i like the one where he min bets flop, you call. min bets turn, you call. pots river when he misses his draw and you call with middle pair and take it....but YOU'RE the idiot for calling! I ask them what they were trying to represent and they never answer. don't blame me when your story doesn't make any sense...

Ok so here are his results




A whole 3 buyins under EV. But last time I challenged him on this he said 888 has the rig so perfectly tuned as to be in-line with EV so as not to arouse suspicion.

To see if the rig ever runs in his favor here are a few hands he has won:








OF COURSE they give that poor soul the nut straight when you have quads, the only possible hand he is ever calling with on the river.









Wow straight AND flush draw? How often are you actually going to have A8 there when he hits a monster like that.









Wow, I mean you could easily be bluffing the flush draw, but to give the guy trup kings on a totally safe board like that? Cmmmoooonnnnn..

This basically goes on and on and on. No real analysis needed against the rig here. His biggest leak is just playing way too passively preflop. His 3bet is 2% overall and he flats a lot with hands like AK and JJ etc.

Anyway dude, you're winning at 6BB/100, you should be happy.

dat redline. You shouldnt be moving up anytime soon, stay at 4nl, where you can at least be up few dollars.

Lol 2% 3b.

No, what I said was they have to let me win 'sometimes' otherwise the rig would become even more obvious. So they still have me below EV, but only to a degree where shills can try to write it off as 'variance'.

As for the three hands you've posted, cherry picking three hands where both myself and villain had a good hand so I stacked him proves nothing. Of course I get good hands sometimes. But this kind of scenario happens way more against me than it does for me. Especially when against new players.

The guy with trip kings played it like a donk tbh. Nothing worse is ever calling when he shoves turn for 2x pot and he totally deserved the full house in his face.

The flatting with AK is because it keeps all villains dominated aces in the pot, so if an ace comes on the flop I've got a good chance of taking a big portion of their stack. And I hate JJ hands - basically, unless you hit a set, no board is good for you by the river. Either there's overcards, or if there's not overcards, it's likely the board is pretty well connected making 2 pair or a straight possible. So I like playing them like I'd play 66 - primarily for set mining.

6bb/100 is to be honest a pretty crap winrate, and it's all because of the rigging. I read here about people who crush these stakes for 15bb/100 so there's no good reason I shouldn't be doing as well. If I was winning at 15bb/100 like I'm supposed to I'd easily be at 10nl by now.

Gfys. I don't care about 'redline', it's just an indicator of playing style. I saw a thread in BBV from this guy who had made $900k who had a negative redline.

lolpotodds, it seems like you are actually a decent player.

it's not as easy to win at a good rate in the nanos as you think, because you are paying rake out the ass.

you can't win at 30bb/100. Phil Ivey couldn't win at 30bb/100. You need to work on your mindset.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mental-Gam.../dp/0615436137

I played 42k hands of 4NL on Merge before we got regulated poker in NJ. In those 42k hands, I paid $218 in rake.

That's 5450 big blinds.

That's 13bb/100.

There's your rig. You "should" be winning at 19bb/100, but you are only winning at 6. Why? Because 4NL is a ****ing rake trap.


As a point of comparison, I've played 15,535 hands of $100 NL and 20,813 hands of $50 NL this year on WSOP.com (NJ).

In the $100 NL hands, I have paid $906.79 and in the $50 NL hands, $745.52.
= 906.79 bb at 100NL and 1,491.04 bb at 50NL
= 5.84bb/100 at 100NL and 7.16bb/100 at 50NL

Because of this rake discrepancy (at least I assume that's the reason) I am actually winning at a higher rate at 100NL than 50NL (8.56 bb/100 vs. 6.37 bb/100).

Yes online poker is rigged. Big stacks that are behind suck out on small stacks with regularity to expedite tournaments. This results in more players buying into more tournaments as the psychological effects of a "bad beat" typically cause most individuals to seek "revenge" and thus buy into another tournament(s) to try to exact some semblance of justice (in their mind).

All RNG's are accompanied by auxiliary software (NRNG's) which contain set arrays of hole cards involved and the ability to circumvent RNG computations when instructed. Just as you can play chess against a computer that has the ability to think and deduce the best move, online poker programs are no different, albeit on a much larger scale. When the number of entrants exceeds the tournament average at a given checkpoint, predetermined outcomes are delivered to restore a given tournament to it's normal, fully customized averages. While this is done randomly and does not benefit any one given player, the results are still predetermined and thus can be deemed as "rigged".

Online poker sites are money machines and all their code is carefully constructed to enhance their bottom lines. Sometimes it will work in your favor and sometimes it won't. Typically, when down to 36-27 players all computations are fully random. However, if you honestly think all iterations throughout an entire tournament are completely random you are sorely mistaken.

Wow luckyone1, thanks for that nugget of wisdom. I especially enjoyed all of the concrete evidence that you provided.

Not played 4NL for a bit but non showdown is always a nightmare from memory, when you try to bluff, you're telling a story to the illiterate.

Correct. It's called rake.

You saved my coffee break thank you.

I'm a believer in action flops. The boards are way too coordinated to be random.

I have AK, flop is AQK, and of course villain has J10, and of course I must be stacked there. Very hard to avoid the rig unless you are a nit.

3 way flop is K 10 4, I have K10, you think would be safe? Of course not, its 3 way all in against Aces and set of 4s. You won't see this stuff in a million years live, but all the time online.

Yes, the bull**** is strong with that one.

Ive seen you post in BBV about being a cash game player.

Why do you believe "action flops" would make a site more rake in your cash games?

Do you ever think about things you say?

I mean, its bad enough to just invent theories and present them as truths, but for Christ sake as least try to have your theory not be completely ass backwards to reality.

Ill help you out with this one.

The last thing a site would want if they were rigging to maximize rake would be players going broke on one hand.

bigger pots = more rake doesn't it?

No.

That is the worst thing possible for collecting rake.

If I have $200 and lose it all the first hand theyve collected $1.50 from me.

The longer Im able to play with my money the more money they make from me.

Its not uncommon to sit HU for example and get into a stale mate with an opponent where there is no action, and leave later break even with your opponent from trading tiny pots back and forth while the site has taken $50+ in rake from both of you.

Replying on my phone so will answer other posts later, but I just had to say this is BS.

If I have $100 and lose it in the first hand, my money doesn't vanish never to be raked again. It passes to another player, and when he gets involved in pots the site takes the rake from him instead.

And it is more likely to go to a winning player, and thus is much less likely to be raked again. If you can't see that it's more likely to be raked in the hands of a player that has only played one hand than it is in the hands of someone who won it from him, I don't know what to tell you.

Whether you believe there is a rig or not, if you really think that the most profitable way for a site to rig the deal is to set up as many all-ins as possible, I'll just say that it's a good thing that you don't run a poker site.

I didnt really have to cherry pick hands at all. All I did was sort your biggest winners from top to bottom. I could have posted 100 hands. I just picked the first 5 I saw that werent AA vs KK. The point is you cant complain the site is rigged when it is also rigged in your favor. At this point I will assume you're trolling because now you are just flat out being ridiculous. I only kept up with this charade because I am at work and get bored and enjoyed arguing for a bit, but the graphs prove everything so we're basically done. To be honest I'm surprised you sent the HH's because surely you knew this would destroy your argument.

No, that's a common excuse for nits. Red line is not about bluffing. If I'd play 2NL now, I'd still crush with positive red line.

Ah, but this is where the new player boomswitch comes into play.

You'd assume stacks are more likely to be won by winning players, but 888poker evens this out. So stacks get won back by the donks to be raked again. Thus 888poker gets many large pots and gets to rake the same money many times.

Fair enough. Fwiw my redline from cash games is positive as well, but as I said, not played 4/5NL for ages and my memories of it are not pleasant.