@lolpotodds, I don't feel qualified to give poker advice but my two cents is to play fewer hands. I have my doubts about the fairness of online poker too but believe it is still beatable, so I approach it that way. I understand wanting to play regardless of the potential of a "rig" and think it's best to pick n choose your spots wisely, at least at the micros where I play.

Earlier today I was playing an online cash game and got up just under 300bb playing selective hands, then decided to get in preflop against a 100bb and 20bb with a K3 suited, flop is K3A, I shove all-in, they both call and both have AJ. Needless to say the turn was trivial but the river was a J. The point being I had built a nice stack at the micros playing fewer/selective hands, there was really no need to put myself in that situation. I'm sure you have at least perceived this countless times as well so treat the rig like running across a four lane highway, avoid it when possible but when attempting it, pick n choose the best spots.

Now, I wonder how many ITT play or have played on Bovada because I just don't see how their "recreational poker model" can be perceived as real poker. I actually win there or at least I have been so far but still have doubts. I never try to trap with anything less than quads because I have seen everything else get run down repeatedly, which makes me feel like I'm not getting max value on many profitable hands but it's better to win less than to lose to some improbable outcome.

What is it with you and demanding ridiculous levels of proof for everything? I've posted hand histories in this thread that proves the KK thing. These weren't just cherry picked, they were the last hands I had KK in.

Because you've yet to show any hard evidence that the game is actually unfair. Like EvilGreebo said, if
is true, filter hands and show the evidence. It takes 2 minutes at most (although I know you find PT4 complicated and confusing, the filters are easy t use) and then you can stop looking like a whiny baby.

What if you just fold on the ****ing flop when you had absolutely nothing whatsoever? What the **** kind of rig gives someone K5o on a AA2 flop? Would it have made you feel better if villain flopped the nuts? What difference does it make if the card that gave him a boat was the card you needed to hit a flush? He could have had your ass from the very beginning of the hand with quads.


Really. So on a board with 4 spades you're calling a river bet with trips?



I doubt he's bluffing, but this is preflop here. There is only 1 hand that beats you. Players will definitely ship QQ/AK here. But maybe he had a note on you too since you seem to get a lot of nits just shipping on you. Here's a tip: dont ever fold KK preflop The times you are right will be outweighed by the times you are wrong.



If there was a rig shouldnt they give you AA and your opponent KK and just let him suckout on you?

He sent me his HH's I'm just waiting to import them in HEM. (new home office not set up yet, poker rig is currently down)

The thing is, arent you up like $50 over several thousand hands? I mean, you're winning right? Shouldnt a rig make you a losing player?

Posting a SINGLE HAND is proof about one thing. That single hand, and only that single hand.

Its about as logically sound as pointing at the temperature today and saying, "The average temperature for 2014 is 30 degrees".

I look forward to seeing your results.

If he'd had AA he'd have raised pre so that's not in his range. The problem isn't that villain got a monster hand - it's that 888poker also gave me a monster hand with the intention of ****ing me over. If I didn't have the nut flush, I don't lose 100bb's on that river.

Fish love to min bet when checked to on 888poker. I thought there was a reasonable chance king high was good OTF, and OTT I had all my outs.

Anyway even if my play was ****, I'm far from the first person on this forum or on 888poker to make a **** play yet everyone is talking about it like I just committed crimes against humanity.

Probably would call a reasonable bet if I had a good kicker, since 4 to a flush boards are good boards to bluff at. Unless villain has river aggro factor of like 1.2.

He didn't ship it 'on' me as I'd yet to act in the hand.

Definetely disagree about the KK thing. From my observation, a regs stackoff range preflop is KK+. Since we hold two of the kings it's overwhelmingly likely he has AA. I used to auto stack with KK but have found it to be costing me money. From now on, my GII range preflop against full stacked players who aren't donks is AA and AA only.

That would be too obvious if it happened too much since the all in EV line would rocket up with the true winrate line would go downwards. They vary the rig - sure sometimes KK sucks out on my AA, more often than not they just give someone else AA while I have KK then they can just say 'well you got the money in behind, shouldn't be surprised that you lost'.

There's more than one way to rig the system. They can setup coolers (i.e. KK vs AA) where I got the money in bad, or set up bad beats where I got the money in good but got sucked out on.

Yeah but I'd be up so much more if the site wasn't rigged. They've stopped me moving to 10nl for ages now.

Ah, I'll stop bugging him to filter his hands then.

You realize that it has to happen if you play long enough with a random deal? Why do you think 888 did that on purpose? Something that had to happen sooner or later with trips versus nfd on the turn is hardly evidence only because it happened, right?
That's like saying, "look, I can throw a six with a die", and when it happens in the third throw, "I told ya".

Your mistake was to draw for implied odds you never had, on the worst board possible to try. Of course it was played badly. Why is it so hard for you to admit that? Even Ivey misplays hands sometimes, you know.

That is so ****ing stupid. Why would they want to STOP you from moving up to 10nl? They rake more at higher levels!

That lpo has managed to get otherwise intelligent people to spend considerable time replying to him for a full month is a feat that ought to be studied by politicians, clergy and tarot card readers for generations to come.

60 pages.
900 posts.

Great performance. Lousy accomplishment.

The problem is that it not only happens 'enough', it happens ALL THE TIME. 888poker give me a great hand but the new player donk gets a better one.

I totally understand variance and that some level of coolers and bad beats are just part of the game. But the amount of them that I get prove that 888 has rigged it against me.

And as for whether I played it badly, even if I did I see much more ******ed calldowns on 888poker. Like the guy who snap called 150BB's with 2 pair on a 4 flush board. Or the guy who called 3 pot sized bets with middle pair. As far as calldowns go, calling off your stack with the nut flush doesn't even register on a scale of bad play.

Because to move to 10nl I'd have to take money from donks which are a protected species over on 888poker. 888poker wants to keep all the donks in the game so gives them my money.

And all those other donks who already play 10nl - they're just rich donks? Or they bought off 888? 888 is picking on you specifically, obviously.

Donk.

The donks who play 10nl either:

1) Played enough hands during their new player boomswitch month, so got the bankroll to be at 10nl.

2) Don't care about BRM and just deposit and play 10nl without even starting at the lower levels.

Hardly anyone who doesn't get to 10nl by the end of their first month will ever make it out of 4nl because of the rig. Unfortunately I didn't get the volume in so am trapped here.

So you've got round to analysing your hand histories and can now demonstrate that you're getting outdrawn and coolered more than you should on average, and the extent to which you're being excessively outdrawn and coolered can't be attributed to chance alone?

Because if not, you don't have proof of anything. You have a vague feeling, and you've concocted an explanation for something that might not even need explaining.

But lolpotodds, I don't understand!

I thought you were a winning player!

I already know this without having to do ******ed 'analysis'. It's obvious every time I load up the tables.

I am, but 888poker makes sure I never get to 10nl by ensuring whenever I'm a couple of buyins away from moving up it kicks me back down another 10 dollars. Then I win it back and it kicks me down again, etc etc.

No, you don't. You can't know anything much without evidence. You suspect it. And on a basis that isn't very sound -- that your results don't accord with your expectations. Occam's Razor being pretty sharp, it's more likely that your expectations (of how swingy poker really is) are off than it is that the site is rigged to benefit new players in general and against you in particular.

[This is where a generation of underinvestment in science and maths educations gets us... ]

You didnt have a monster bro. You had King Five offsuit. In fact if anything 888 was rigging it against your opponent by flopping him trips in a spot where he could never get anyone to call. Whats even worse is that he made the nuts on a board so bad he should never expect to get paid, since most people arent drawing to runner runner flushes on paired boards.

Even if K5o is good on the flop, just how good do you think it is? You realize with 2 streets left villain can easily outdraw you with a pair of 7's just by getting lucky. Your edge in these games is not going to be picking off 1BB bluff's with king high. You need to FLOP a real hand and then play from there. Or at least bluff at something and catch up on the turn. I wouldnt have even minded it if you bluff-raised the flop. In fact if you think he's bluffing then thats probably what you SHOULD do. K5o is not going to survive to the river. Your hand is so trash even though it is good, it might as well be worth a bluff, and this is actually a great board to try it. When he calls you know you're absolutely screwed, and when he jams river, even if you hit your flush after bluffing flop, you DEFINITELY know you're screwed.

It's the fact you keep defending it. It sounds like you are starting to come to the realization you should have folded at every possible moment though, so thats good.



They're only good to bluff at in pots that got checked down, this way it looks like they just "got there" by pure chance. This pot had betting on all 3 streets, there's no way someone is going to bluff a flush after being called down 3 streets. You clearly look like thats what you have, a flush.


So your argument now is that the rig is so perfectly disguised as to match the mathematical probability of which hand should win? Think about that for a second.

Backed out days ago from his posts. Thank you for highlighting exactly what I've been thinking.

Even Ivey misplays hands sometimes, you know.[/QUOTE]

you mean like this one?

http://youtu.be/1aRA4cffC1Q

No, that's Ivey spotting the WSOP's obvious rig and not playing into it.

lol...yeah.

Just checked my 2nl stats on FT, and ive had KK 124 times, and im only up 2 buy ins. Thats just obscene. I lose pretty much every big pot with them. As soon as I see a flop and Im called, im pretty much dead. If there is a draw on the flop it of course turns, and of course villain has it.

Its not like you see the flush turn and think, Maybe he has it, of course someone has it because that's why its there in the first place. Its deliberate. I might just start opening shoving but then Ill just get called by aces. Sadly online KK is a fold hand pre.

At 5nl, like I said yesterday, the last 100 times im losing with them as well. Same on 888, I just get done by sets or run into aces 80% of the time. Losing so much with apparently second best starting hand in poker, what's the point?

Simply unbelievable. How many times do I need to play KK for it to actually win most of the time like the odds dictate? 1 million?

If you are up 2 buyins in 124 hands, your winrate with KK is 161.29 bb/100.

Sure, this is low for KK, but obviously they are winning "most of the time".