Those are definitely the only 2 possibilities.

But you don't think it's rigged.

We can call the same thing by using the different names...

Bottom line is this :
Client receives cards from the server , it doesn't matter how many chains are there which those RNG values goes through, if we could see the whole chain.
In reality there should be only one chain after RNG is complete.
What you're saying about substituting those values further up the chain is exactly what this is all about and what we don't know.

Open source is just an idea , because I can't see how else we can know what's really going on. One company audited it ? Ah well, you know ...

Buddy , the "whole server side" dealing with RNG and distribution of the cards, clearer now ?

I don't agree , you can't find anything that way.
That's whats brilliant about the whole scheme
They're not doing that blatantly.

People knowledgeable about statistics have argued in detail that you can (and demonstrated it) so I'm curious as to your reasons why you believe they are wrong?

It's how superusers were uncovered. But your BFF blatantlyrigged has made it very clear that they are. Surely only one of you can be right.

I wasn't sure, was only suspicious, but the more and more I dig I'm pretty sure now that it's rigged.
It's actually pretty obvious, problem is that it's hard to prove it.

Something like 9/11 events , clearly official story is a fake one, but nobody can prove it.

That won't allow you to "see what's going on". They can give you a copy of source code and run something else. Again, the only way a regulatory agency has a chance is by using a secure server facility, doing the auditing on the live software, and then ensuring it remains unchanged without a new audit. And then consumers just have to have an agency that they trust to run it. People say they don't trust IoM to do it but would trust Nevada to do it. In reality what will happen is that the games will play exactly like they do now (i.e. random but people still think otherwise) and then they won't trust Nevada to do it either.

Also how a ton of bot, collusion and soft play issues have been documented in many other legitimate threads here. Why would riggies, who want to be paranoid and believe in conspiracies, care about details like that? Anyway, it is much more fun to see how deep their paranoia can take them!



What do you think actually happened with 9/11, aka the "real" story?

It all evens out to be proper in the end.
Sometimes your aces will hold up vs kings, when it's crucial it won't (sometimes it will when crucial for you, but it all depends on your history and what algo wants).
You can take any hand for that matter, AK vs A3 , JJ vs 44 etc.
What they take into account is your history and tendencies.
Are you cashing out certain amount if you win, are you re-depositing frequently if loosing, what games are you playing (first time, regular at that game, etc.)
I mean I don't know the whole thing and how exactly it works obv, but you get the idea.

How can something be not blatant while also pretty obvious?

bla·tant/ˈblātnt/
Adjective:

Completely lacking in subtlety; very obvious.

Jesus you rigtards are stupid.

This statement makes me realize that engaging you in discussion at all was pointless. Your fake objectivity was almost working up till this.

If it all evens out to proper in the end (by which I'm assuming you mean that the results are close to expectation) then what reason do you have to believe its likely rigged? How does a site deal non-randomly but produce results that are identical to what it would look like if it were random? People knowledgeable in stats have described how difficult and perhaps impossible this would be (search Pyromantha in this thread). Do you have reason to believe they are wrong? Is there anyone who has described a plausible way for such a rig to be in place?

Just saying: they rig it to make it look random is not an argument. You can't just stipulate some magic algorithm that deals non-randomly but then also balances out thousands upon thousands of accounts to look random! remember, you think this is happening enough to be obvious - which mean its happening a lot - so how do they bring all the stats back in line?

Sure, I would be happy with that solution for example.
But we don't have that and that's the problem.

I think what he is saying is that if you look at the totality of a large sample then the event frequencies will be normal but if you look at smaller subsets they won't be. His misconception is that thinking that if things "even out" that makes the large sample look normal. But it doesn't, except to the most cursory and superficial examination. He also doesn't understand really what "normal" means with regard to a random process. It most certainly does not just mean that "it all evens out to be proper in the end ".

I don't think he's thinking that subtly - he believes that the poker companies have a super secret magic formula tthat can rig cards when they want to but then "even-it-out" later on to make the overall results look proper. He has no idea whether it is possible or not, but imagines it is because poker companies have enough money to hire the best programmers and what other explanation could there be for the overall numbers being at expectation but the deal still being obviously rigged?

gzer: please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Yeah I knew this would happen when I mentioned 9/11 .
Whatever, hold on to what you want in order to dismiss something.
It doesn't matter what I think really happened.
That's not the topic here, it also doesn't matter what I think about rigged online poker, but I'm saying what I think about it in this thread.
It's just an example, like this poll whether online poker is rigged or not, even on this forum numbers are pretty high that it's rigged.
How come so many people here think it's rigged ?
All ******s ?

Even if everyone in the poll believed it was rigged - that's not an actual argument. It's a logical fallacy called Argument from popularity. What you want to know is why do think think its rigged, and is their reasoning sound. Many riggies have expressed their opinions here - do you think any have put forward reliable evidence of rigging?

You got it exactly right buddy.

We could ask you if all the poker companies use the same secret formula, or ask about the ones that are out of business (why no insiders have spoken), but that generally leads to very routine silly replies by riggies, so generally "the cave" theory is brought out where they hide all the ex-employees and secret programmers.


Most riggies are 9/11 guys. No doubt you believe in lots of conspiracies you cannot prove, but you believe in completely.

Does it make you stupid? Well, I would suggest it makes you rather open to suggestions on all sorts of things when you want to believe. Look at how you are convincing yourself that it must be rigged, all from a single hand in a $4 tournament.

Kind of a similar behavior pattern as the following:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdWBjqUGgvU


Now, you can make a good twist if you suggest you are just pretending to be a standard paranoid conspiracy guy for fun and see if others believe that. Try that for a fun change of pace.

All the best.

Fine, we can reverse the question then and I can ask you why do you think it's not rigged , you believe everything that's been served to you ?
Or..... do you know for a fact that it isn't rigged ?
If so , why ?

If it was that obvious it would also pretty easy to prove it. Amazing logic you riggies have.

- Insiders would spill the beans by now (remember hundreds of poker rooms have ceased to exist, so they have no reason to not tell)

- Tons of huge millions and billions of hand studies have been done, and players who are HEM freaks analyze their databases every day for any type of strange results

- Any specific riggie theory could be easily tested in minutes (which is why all riggie theories are the magic fairy variety, or they ask to prove it is not rigged)

- Poker rooms that want to steal can do it in much, much easier ways. They just steal.


In the end it is about common sense, while riggies behavior is based on paranoia and a need to believe in a massive conspiracy (generally to rationalize their inadequate results).

Personally I think it is kind of fun when a riggie really gets going (as you are now) and the conspiracy gets bigger and bigger and involves everybody, though eventually you hit the point of boredom where you believe every hand (live and online) is rigged on every site/casino against every player (you can figure out which riggie that is).

Semi-less fun is watching all the "nice" shills try to work with you guys when it is always a matter of time before you reveal your true colors. Kind of crazy that this happens over and over, but that is part of the charm of the thread.

Anyway, you seem nicely on your way to join the super riggie so keep at it (he could use a stable partner/friend), and do share your 9/11 beliefs, otherwise you are admitting that you are too afraid to make them public and thus do not actually believe in them.

All the best.

If they have demonstrated it to your satisfaction, that can only mean you have completely understood it. So now instead of constantly referring to others when defending the deal, let's start hearing it from you.