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The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition
View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes
3,508 34.88%
No
5,615 55.84%
Undecided
933 9.28%

11-17-2011 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet
TPTK is the proven liar. Did HJ do it too? Or are you saying HJ is TPTK's gimmick?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
It's ray's gimmick.
Sshh! Don't tell everyone

The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:30 PM
You posted another picture of a dude from your vast collection.

How creative.

All the best.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
Finally, I know who I work for now.
This guy?

The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
You posted another picture of a dude from your vast collection.

How creative.

All the best.
It's actually a picture of two dudes, I nearly credited you with the intelligence to notice that without being told.

Thanks for the well-wishes. Break a leg old chap.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymears
It's actually a picture of two dudes, I nearly credited you with the intelligence to notice that without being told.
You stare at dudes with a lot more care and detail than I do, so I yield to your expertise when it comes to your collection of dude pictures.

Good luck in the $2 rebuys today if you are doing some shot taking at higher buy ins.

All the best.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
You stare at dudes with a lot more care and detail than I do, so I yield to your expertise when it comes to your collection of dude pictures.
Lol, projecting again - a rather prominent trait of yours.

Get it off your chest old bean
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggavelli
Today I met wisdom incarnate. He's the former Bishop of Rwanda, having recently retired. He spoke for an hour or so at the beginning of a day dedicated to explaining the vision and execution of World Relief Rwanda. This is a man who represents and leads the entire country through the Anglican church, a man who speaks to hundreds if not thousands at a time, a man who speaks to and councils presidents and ambassadors, here to talk to the twelve of usHe didn't speak on behalf of World Relief, but he definitely agreed with their work and methodology.The Rwandan government relies heavily on the Church to care for the most vulnerable. That is Jesus' mandate for the Church, and the Church therefore, presumably, is the body most fit for the task. Is it the government's duty as well? Yes, I think it is, but in the US, the Church often shrugs off its responsibility, its core purpose, because we can rationalize that our government has already taken care of it.It's entirely foreign to me that government should rely on the church to do anything. It seems to me our government tries to do what would make our lives better, avoiding at all costs any relationship to the church; the church is a hinderance, not an asset. Recently I was considering whether it might not be a good idea to completely remove marriage, a religious notion, from our laws. Let the church handle religion. Hearing Bishop John's telling of how the Rwandan government and church work together, complement each other, may have turned me around on that. Of course, it's easier when 90% of the population claims to be Christian.The Bishop talked a bit about the US, where he has lived in the past, and some of the Church's failures there. One of those failures, he said, is not being able to talk about Christianity in the schools. I assume he means students not being able to, but he didn't specify. I asked him how the church could not fail in that regard and he said it needs to change its attitude; it needs to be more humble. He said the Anglican church has figured out everything, and it leaves no room for the Spirit. He then asked if he had answered my question, which I felt he had not, so I asked how that would change the government's position on religion in the schools. Essentially he said the government doesn't value the church because we no longer have anything of value to offer. "The church doesn't do magic. If you put salt in a pan and heat the pan with the food and serve it immediately, the salt won't have added any flavor." He suggested that if we humble ourselves and serve rather than rant, in a generation or two, we may see change in how people view Christianity. It's certainly food for thought.Another culture shock that I mentioned previously is Rwanda's view of Sex. "Professor" Maurice, my translator on Thursday for the pastoral retreat, talked a bit about the Mobilizing for Life program they have which teaches faithfulness and abstinence to combat AIDS. I asked a devil's advocate question, as I do so often, "When the US, historically, has taught abstinence only, it's failed miserably. It doesn't reduce the amount of sex, it reduces the amount of safe sex. (Thank you CJ Craig.) What do we expect to happen here?" In the last three or four years, the number of sexually active youth in areas where the benefits of abstinence has been taught has dropped from 33% to 12%. Maurice talked about a lot of testimonies. Pastor Phil said there are statistics to support this as well. He went on to talk about the many supporters of Rwanda, whether they be governments or organizations, that all have agendas for Rwanda and Africa. They all have their own ideals. Much of what comes in is helpful, from financial aid to education to entrepreneurial spirit. But with the good also comes the bad and the ugly, and just because the US can't keep its dick in its pants, doesn't mean the rest of the world can't. Since then (two hours ago) I've been thinking about what could cause this separation in values (and abstinence is a value in Rwanda). I know it's not belief in the Bible, as this education is still being taught to the country and roughly one in three pastors aren't even "born again." It's not ancestral roots (they're not being taught it by their parents) as polygamy is an issue here. I'm left thinking it's our media, our advertising, our obsession with sex in the first place. They have no sex appeal ads because they have no ads at all. I'm not blaming the media outright as the media wouldn't present what we don't want to see. There's a Jack Johnson song about this called "Cookie Jar".These two pointed questions earned me the prestigious Hardest Questions award during graduation from World Relief University.I overheard at the end of Bishop John's talk, on the way to tea that Rwanda is, too, materialistic. Americans put their faith and trust in the objects they own. Rwandans put their hope in the objects they think would make their lives complete. I guess Americans do that as well. It's an interesting thought, to be sure.What I've learned today is that life as it's meant to be is hard. In fact, it's impossible. The amount of forgiveness, the metaphorical seventy times seven, for every possible way someone can sin against us, whether that be accidental, misunderstanding, cruelty, thievery, rape, or murder of loved ones... how can you? With the 1994 genocide raw in everyone's minds here, it makes all of this that much more real. The amount of healing through forgiveness that's happened in the last 17 years is phenomenal. Selling your stuff to support those in need? I can easily give, and in fact enjoy giving, out of my abundance, but ask me to sell my tv, or laptop, or car to help someone? Not happening. LIfe, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness? God gives us life and the liberty to do with it and fail as we please in our own pursuit of happiness. LIfe is the one thing we, as Americans, feel we have as our own. How can we give that up completely? It's impossible. "With Christ all things are possible." It's hard to comprehend, much less believe, much less act on.On lighter topics (and it is now this entry's tomorrow, about 18 hours since starting it), we left our hotel in Musanze yesterday morning. Before leaving, we walked up to the Catholic church about five minutes away and prayed for the region. Dyanah didn't walk with us. I thought she was being lazy since she got in a car that was to pick us up at the church. It turns out she was leaving, so I missed my chance to hug her goodbye. Nothing grieves me more than missed opportunities for relationship, romantic or not. To my future girlfriends, never tease me by offering a kiss and then denying it because of something, legitimate or not, I did. It tears me apart.The ride to our new home, where the day-university class was held, was about 40 minutes long, bumpy and upward. (We're just about to leave this place, and I just carried my bags up the stairs to where the SUVs are. To give you an idea of the elevation, not only am I winded, which would be normal, but everyone else has mentioned being winded too.) We got some beautiful shots of waterfalls and people working their fields. The retreat center we went to has the most glorious view I've ever seen, tenfold and then some. It overlooks a large lake with several islands in the middle. There's no electricity to the islands, so there are no power lines crossing the water or anything else to mar the scene. Not that I've ever been a poetic writer, but I doubt anyone but a poet laureate could capture the view. Or a photo. With the world's best camera. Yeah, you really should just visit.Glory be to God, we had a bathroom door in our room.It has rained fairly frequently, so we haven't had much opportunity to see the whole thing unclouded, nor have I had any time to journal outside.Because I don't believe I've yet stated it, and it really is one of the main points of this trip, I'm going to attempt to explain World Relief's purpose here in Rwanda. "To empower the local church to serve the most vulnerable." We've (the world) found that dumping money in Africa hasn't worked. In fact, it has worsened the situation by creating a dependency on those who've tried to help. The old give a man a fish, teach a man to fish. The only way Africa will ever succeed in betterment is if it does it itself, if it owns it itself. World Relief believes the best organization to serve the "most vulnerable," the poor, the widows and orphans, the down-and-out, is the Church, as it has been called by Jesus to do so. Further, with 90% claiming faith, it's the largest social network in Rwanda, already in place.Jesus calls himself the groom and the Church his bride. World Relief sees itself as the maid of honor, the woman whose job it is to help the bride to have everything she needs, and then to step out of the way.World Relief doesn't supply any financial incentives for pastors to join in their programs, except in the beginning for a free lunch and transportation. The pastors or other Rwandans own everything they do. World Relief just supplies training (trainers of trainers) and curriculum. If people think of a program as World Relief's, they'll become dependent on the organization.This kind of thinking is difficult for task/results-oriented people and organizations. "89¢ a day will let this child go to school." That organization will, unfortunately, never go out of business, never succeed in its goal of saving Africa. Even organizations that agree with World Relief's way of doing things are often pressed by boards for results and will pay for food and transport for every meeting. Now pastors aren't going to the meeting for the benefits of the meeting, but for free food and the extra money left over after expensing transportation. Once again, they're taught that white people will give them money.It calls into question, a bit, our (Bethany's) partnership with Living Water International. Wells are great, but it'd be better if the Africans paid for them. They also break fairly frequently, so that's another opportunity for African business. Elizabeth has mentioned this to LIving Water (whom primarily in the past has been sponsored by organizations and companies that want to boast they've put x wells in Uganda), and said Bethany is more interested in a relationship and partnership with the people our wells have gone to, and that we also want a maintenance plan in place for those wells. It sounded like, from talking to her, they were noncommittal. She said she'd call again when we get back.Last night at our team time, Richard tried to make joke to tease me about Dyanah, but accidentally said [Caleb] instead of Jordan. After a team-wide fit of laughter directed at Richard instead of me, Elizabeth asked if there was romance there and I shrugged indicating a little. I guess she had no idea. She had even pointed out at breakfast one day that the only two other single people on the trip were women too old for me, and "I guess you'll just have to find an African."This morning before our mostly-daily devotion, we did a quick highs-and-lows. At the end, I appended a sappy, half-joking low that I didn't get to hug Di goodbye. This unfortunately coincided with a side-effect of my Vyvanse, watery eyes. I don't know if anyone noticed or thought I was tearing up over it. Amongst the laughter at my bringing this up, I heard someone say I was doing it wrong, that I was supposed to be embarrassed so they could tease me. Ha.We spent some time debriefing. I've said it before: I don't really come with expectations because I don't know wheat to expect, and I don't want to be disappointed. The disappointments I've had were minor, a missed hug, paying more than I'd meant to on a souvenir chess set, not having as much a-few-on-one time with the pastors on Saturday. I spent the last twenty minutes of that debriefing time writing this, which is really debriefing in itself.This whole trip we've been examining poverty. This trip is based on a book called When Helping Hurts. At the beginning, it does a deep dive on the various forms of poverty. It's essentially when our relationships to God, self, community or environment are out of whack. This is to say that we ourselves are quite poor as well. We don't lack materials, but our relationships to ourselves and to our communities are really screwed up. To God, I'll leave on a per-person basis, and in Washington, we're at least trying to be environmental. Anyway, financial poverty affects all four relationships, at least in the theory presented by the book. I asked the group whether it was fair to say that Jesus experienced no poverty. The consensus was that he did not. Then I asked if he was materially poor, which he was. I'm still thinking that out.When we came back from personal reflection, Richard said something profound (or maybe this was sometime else). He said, "it's much easier to sympathize with people when they act against us when we recognize their actions as their own poverty."Last night, the Nertz crew played a couple games. Lindsay crushed us in the first 100-point series. She wanted to go to bed but we prevented it and I actually dealt her cards for her so she had no choice It was only a 75-point round and it looked like Richard was going to finally win, but I passed him up in the last hand. Tonight, however, our dear Richard finally won, and won big, two 100-pointers in a row. After the first, he took off his shirt and ran and danced around. I'm surprised he didn't give a speech. I'm glad he finally won. I was starting to feel bad for him, but I never let anyone win. My mom never let me win growing up, and I really appreciate that.During last night's games, some wild African dogs tried to get into the room we were playing in. We shut the door just in time, but until after the games ended, they puppy-guarded us. We waited and watched for a few minutes as they ran around the yard playing with each other. It felt like they were waiting for us, and then, miraculously, they just left. We hightailed it out of there as quietly as we could, back to our rooms. About 80% there, when Richard knew we were home free, he stopped suddenly to freak out Lindsay, who had been significantly the most nervous about the run. Good times.I'm running out of pages in this 100-page notebook. Most of the left hand pages are empty, so don't you worry about losing a second of Rwandan play-by-play. Except about Saturday. I just really don't have anything to say about that day.Yesterday we met with a few pastors from various churches in the area to make reminder-to-pray bookmarks to disperse to Bethany. That's all I have to say about that.The rain just stopped. People are again walking the streets. That's the first thing you notice in daytime Rwanda. There are people everywhere. They don't have cars and so they walk. Bicycles are fairly common. They all have flat beds behind the seats for carrying people, bags of potatoes, or bundles of bamboo-looking branches. You could close line six people at once. Buses and vans are there too. The most common mode of quick transportation is paying a motorcyclist to taxi you. People carry everything on their heads. They necks must be made of cement (steel bends when compressed). When it starts to rain, everyone just takes shelter, squished together under the nearest eve until it stops.The roads aren't near as crazy as in Jamaica. While pedestrians don't have right-of-way, at least drivers will slow down and try to avoid them. They honk if a pedestrian or bicyclist is ten seconds away. Cars slow down around curves or when they're about to hit pot holes. Not so in Jamaica. Drivers aren't afraid that cutting someone off will cause an accident. Perhaps the speed limit naturally enforced by the pedestrians and road quality allow for quick braking.Though people crowd the city streets of Seattle, this is somehow different. People look more comfortable around other people. They look used to walking and taking whatever time it takes. Seattlites are determined unless they're playing the tourist for the day.My pen just dried up. Nearly the entire thing was spent in this journal. I hadn't planned on that possibility happening. I don't think I've ever written a pen, start to finish.On Friday night, a new translator arrived for the weekend named Dyanah, or Di. She and I have been a little bit of an item, an innocent, two-day African fling. She's stick thin--compared to her, I look average--about 5'9", with a face softer than most African women have. I was surprised that her accent nearly matches mine. She's going into international business, in the hopes of traveling the world a bit.The last two nights' events conspired against our Nertz tradition. No riveting writing to add there.As it is Sunday, we all went to church, or rather three churches. The church we went to was Baptist, I believe. It's a church Elizabeth visited when she was here in January. Since then, it has gained windows, doors, a roof, and a floor, half of which was still drying today.When we got there, a choir was already singing and dancing. As the rear half of the floor was dying, the front doors were locked and everyone entered by a side door near the front. We were seated in chairs immediately to our right, clearly reserved by for esteemed visitors.The choir sang a couple songs, each five to eight minutes long. We clapped. Di complained to me yesterday that all the music here is now synthesized rather than made with real drums or instruments. Such was the case here. When the music died down, the pastor welcomed each group: men, women, children, pastors from the Congo, visiting pastors from nearby, people who have been gone a while but have returned, new people, and us. He gave a short sermon Daniel 1. More singing happened by a second choir, lots of clapping, lots of dancing. The pastor had us go to the front and introduce ourselves. More singing happened and this time the pastor invited us to join in the dancing. I wish I had, just because it's a bit of a fear of mine. Ballroom dancing and swing I love; when I don't know what I'm doing, I can't make myself move. The running-in-place the dancing men were doing was pretty simple, but I still wimped out. Next was time for testifying. Someone had gotten married this week and an aunt was proud and praising Jesus for it. Something happened for a guy that I don't remember, and to thank God, he was putting 50,000 franks in the offering this week. That's about $83--very generous here, about two weeks' wages. Each time someone went up or sat down, including when we introduced ourselves, the keyboardist played the same short tune giving it a talk show flavor. A second pastor came forth to give a half hour sermon on a few different verses scattered throughout the Bible. The long and short of it was that people need to return to God, and until that happens, don't expect any miracles Next was tithes and offerings. We each put in our 83¢ we'd been told was an appropriate amount. More singing and dancing. The three hour service ended around noon.I was in my Sunday best, slacks, black dress shirt, shoes, and tie. Di said I looked "stunning."This morning I had a debilitating headache. Marie gave me some Advil and I skipped breakfast in lieu of lying down til it took effect. Thus, I missed the announcement that we ought to bring a change of casual clothes. It turned out not to matter as stopping back at the hotel before lunch was both on the way and the more logical choice.We had lunch at Lava Cafe, which I think the other members of my team nicknamed Lava Java. They serve white people friendly food. I got what the menu made sound like a try-tip dip. They forgot my au jus, but all-in-all it was decent. Di ate my fries complaining for the umpteenth time that I don't eat.After lunch, we went to a national rainforest as tourists. What appeared to be a park ranger gave us a tour of the forest, complete with history and legend. We took a ton of pictures. Di stole my camera saying I don't take enough shots. I'll be the first to admit that. Africans take pictures slightly diagonally. We got a good shot or two of the two of us with arms draped over shoulders. Right at the end of the tour path, it began to rain. Heavily. It was a mad dash across volcanic stones and under vines, Indiana Jones style, to the SUVs. The rain stopped thirty feet from the start of the trail. One of the legends or historic stories had to do with a pool or spring that dried up when someone tried to tamper with it. Four snakes appeared and the tamperer disappeared, never seen again to this day. Seven days later, the pool returned to normal. We saw that pool then left for home.I'm all stuffed up with a sore throat. I think Marie gave me her cold. I don't much feel like eating dinner, which is in fifteen minutes, but I want to say goodbye to Dyanah. It's been fun.

Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
didnt read

good point bro

wtf?? i mean.. wtf?
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellojello
Stars are really getting there monies worth with you shills.
Is this the same Stars that I've criticised in more than one thread, most recently the one about the way they ran that 70 billion hands promotion?
Here's a little question for you. Think carefully before answering. Would a shill for Pokerstars make a habit of publically criticising the company's decisions?
Now, do you still think I'm a shill?
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
Is this the same Stars that I've criticised in more than one thread, most recently the one about the way they ran that 70 billion hands promotion?
Here's a little question for you. Think carefully before answering. Would a shill for Pokerstars make a habit of publically criticising the company's decisions?
Now, do you still think I'm a shill?
I have no clue as to how you can take any of this thread seriously!

Man, loosen your grip!
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymears
cool pic!
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellojello
You do realize since the site was only audited to the shuffle they can/do go in when needed and manipulate the dealings short term right. It's not only possible but is a known fact .
Is it? To whom is this manipulation known? And how exactly do they do it?
Does Stars have thousands of RNG riggers that observe every table, and manipulate the cards so that particular people win and others lose? Is there a list of who to boom and who to doom?
I can't think of any viable method that could be used to put bad players on a heater, while giving good players a cold deck, unless Stars could also control exactly which tables we sat on, and also forced us to play hands we wanted to fold. With 35,000 players online at any one time, the site would need 35,000 staff members to make sure each of us was booming or busting as planned.
To put it basic terms, why would Stars go to the time and expense of controlling what happens after the shuffle, if it was even possible, when the easiest thing to do is let random chance decide the cards, and then let skill decide which players win and lose?
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
Does Stars have thousands of RNG riggers that observe every table, and manipulate the cards so that particular people win and others lose?
They might've done it that way back in the days of the Antikythera mechanism, but certainly not today, and thanks mainly to a fellow by the name of Shockley.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
To put it basic terms, why would Stars go to the time and expense of controlling what happens after the shuffle, if it was even possible, when the easiest thing to do is let random chance decide the cards, and then let skill decide which players win and lose?
The whole point of rigging a deal, IF they do it, is to even up the playing field- the entire notion is to prevent the top players taking all the money and the games drying up.

Imagine they give new players to a network the first 60,000 hands played boomswitched, that player will then build a bankroll and move up in stakes. When he moves up, he is going to lose most of the time and therefore his prior winnings then fuels the poker economy at that higher stake. I can't prove that, but it would be an excellent way to boost the site's profits.

But anyway, I have a question for you. You say you beat 888 quite well yet break even at PS. Now ignoring the fact I've said 888 is the only network I trust to deal a fair game from my experience, but having no proof whatsover, other than my gut feelings (which account for nothing in terms of evidence), what are the reasons YOU feel why you beat the 888 games yet break even at PS?

I'm genuinely interested on your take on that. Do you think the PS games are tougher, do you feel certain things tend to happen at one network over anyother etc?
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPTK27
what are the reasons YOU feel why you beat the 888 games yet break even at PS?
I'm genuinely interested on your take on that. Do you think the PS games are tougher, do you feel certain things tend to happen at one network over anyother etc?
That's simple to answer and it's backed by the stats in my HEM database.
Basic answer is: Players on 888 are looser/fishier, with some coming across from sports betting and casino games.
Players on Stars are tighter/better, partly because of the dealt rake system and VPP scheme that rewards volume in terms of dealt hands, not the amount contributed to pots.
If you want the figures for VPIP/PFR/limping etc, I can fire up HEM and get a screengrab, but off the top of my head, a typical Pokerstars 2NL FR player has VPIP/PFR/3bet stats of 13/7/4 whereas an average 888 player has stats like 22/6/2.
It's easier to win money from the loose passives on 888 than the ubernits on Stars.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
That's simple to answer and it's backed by the stats in my HEM database.
Basic answer is: Players on 888 are looser/fishier, with some coming across from sports betting and casino games.
Players on Stars are tighter/better, partly because of the dealt rake system and VPP scheme that rewards volume in terms of dealt hands, not the amount contributed to pots.
If you want the figures for VPIP/PFR/limping etc, I can fire up HEM and get a screengrab, but off the top of my head, a typical Pokerstars 2NL FR player has VPIP/PFR/3bet stats of 13/7/4 whereas an average 888 player has stats like 22/6/2.
It's easier to win money from the loose passives on 888 than the ubernits on Stars.
I mostly agree with you on these stats. However, IMO, most of your profit will not come from the average player on any network, but will come from the least skilled players who play more than 25% of the hands. IMO, the number of these players were about the same on all sites, but all sites had less players that were really bad than in the past. So, profit should be less than in the past, but not totally gone like so many players like TPTK27 and myself have experienced in the last 2 years. Thus, we have suspicions about the RNG on sites like Poker Stars.

It no longer matters to me since I live in US. However, the odds of US legalization seem to go up every day. I completely believe that any US regulated site will have a fair and random RNG. State regulators like Nevada will make sure that they do. The problem with all the current poker sites is that none are regulated by governments that care about consumer protection.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55
The problem with all the current poker sites is that none are regulated by governments that care about consumer protection.
Do you have any evidence for that statement or is it yet another mindless opinion from a small minded, parochial, bigot?
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
If you want the figures for VPIP/PFR/limping etc, I can fire up HEM and get a screengrab, but off the top of my head, but more likely out of the bottom of my aristotle, a typical Pokerstars 2NL FR player has VPIP/PFR/3bet stats of 13/7/4 whereas an average 888 player has stats like 22/6/2.
J'adoube.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
That's simple to answer and it's backed by the stats in my HEM database.
Basic answer is: Players on 888 are looser/fishier, with some coming across from sports betting and casino games.
Players on Stars are tighter/better, partly because of the dealt rake system and VPP scheme that rewards volume in terms of dealt hands, not the amount contributed to pots.
If you want the figures for VPIP/PFR/limping etc, I can fire up HEM and get a screengrab, but off the top of my head, a typical Pokerstars 2NL FR player has VPIP/PFR/3bet stats of 13/7/4 whereas an average 888 player has stats like 22/6/2.
It's easier to win money from the loose passives on 888 than the ubernits on Stars.
I'd agree 888 does have more fish than most networks, with a very weak VIP system for micostakes players, there's a better balance of good and weak players than PS.

That said, I've reviewed my HEM showdown results many times trying to work out where I'm better off to play, and when you have a weak player OOP, they WILL go to showdown and call river bets with very weak hands. That's why we table select.

888 in my HEM has many many examples of fish calling river bets with weak hands- middle pairs, TPWK hands.

So you've played both sites, open up PS results and filter for went to showdown and not all in, and try and compare how often you get called by garbage at showdown in comparison to 888.

YES, there are weaker players on average at 888, but there are still big fish at PS, especially at NL2 LOL.

I personally think the manipulation is quite blatant when you look at showdown hands on different networks, FTP for example you would hardly ever see a weak made hand call down. But of course, sample size always prevents this from being evidence
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
You stare at dudes with a lot more care and detail than I do, so I yield to your expertise when it comes to your collection of dude pictures.

Good luck in the $2 rebuys today if you are doing some shot taking at higher buy ins.

All the best.
Insinuating someone is gay is a sick burn. You know because gay people are gross.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymears
J'adoube.
OMG they knighted Arty.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Insinuating someone is gay is a sick burn. You know because gay people are gross.
I think monty might just be letting his homophobia show.

Either that or he's preparing to come out of the closet.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Insinuating someone is gay is a sick burn. You know because gay people are gross.
Shame you think gay people are gross, as homophobia or any form of hatred based on gender, sexual preference or nationality is wrong.

I was simply pointing out that based on his posting history that he had a lot more experience studying pictures of men than I do, not that there is anything wrong with that, but he seemed amused and puzzled why I did not deeply study his latest picture of a dude (or two dudes as he clarified).

Hope this helped explain the situation to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by raymears
Lol, projecting again - a rather prominent trait of yours.

Get it off your chest old bean
You seem to think nobody can look at your posting history which features dozens of pictures of different men. Not saying that your lifestyle choice is wrong, just acknowledging that you have a better knowledge of pictures of men than I do based on your extensive history with your collection.

Perhaps you think I or other posters are posting them instead of you as a form of projection, but you would be better off asking the guys at twoplustwo to remove the search function so nobody could disprove that within a minute.

No comment on my $2 rebuy question, so I guess you were not shot taking today. Good luck when you do get the courage to move up.

All the best.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
Shame you think gay people are gross, as homophobia or any form of hatred based on gender, sexual preference or nationality is wrong.
Woosh! (1)

Quote:
I was simply pointing out that based on his posting history that he had a lot more experience studying pictures of men than I do, not that there is anything wrong with that, but he seemed amused and puzzled why I did not deeply study his latest picture of a dude (or two dudes as he clarified).
Woosh! (2)

Clue: It was a subtle comment on your paranoid and evidence free (you share so much with the 'tards) assertion that one or other random accounts were his gimmicks.

Two people in one, you see. Get it now?

Quote:
Hope this helped explain the situation to you.
In the current context that's hilarious.


Quote:
You seem to think nobody can look at your posting history which features dozens of pictures of different men. Not saying that your lifestyle choice is wrong, just acknowledging that you have a better knowledge of pictures of men than I do based on your extensive history with your collection.
Monty, you may not realise this but using pictures of people to make humorous (or attempted humorous) comments about people does not indicate that someone has any covert reason for looking at said pictures.

You really are posting like someone who is wedged in the closet and wants to deflect attention from himself by making spurious comments about other people's sexuality.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote
11-17-2011 , 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
The truth can be painful to guys like you which is why you do everything you can to avoid it.

I offered to show you how to make millions exploiting any pattern you see if you just say the specific pattern, but that would mean having to back your beliefs so you of course said nothing and tried to deflect that question as guys like you do.

I asked if you thought you were good at poker, and you avoided that painful question as well.

You have posted how you have gone busto many times and are complaining about your cashier balance. That aint the sign of a success story.

You can rationalize that people replying on a message board means more than it is, but you should quit playing online poker. If you do not that's fine with me, just means you will lose more money to the poker economy.
The new line is pretty tough, but it wont work. Why not? Because I read "Monteroy" in the left bar, so I know what kind of person came up with that stuff.

If you had a good case it shouldnt be any problem to present it convincingly so riggies would understand. But since you dont, you turn to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyonkemp
Its quite obvious what you are doing Monteroy. And I hope everyone who is a genuine player on this forum can tell from your writings what your agenda on this forum is. You are great at writing and persuading other into believe what you are saying. The way you protect any idea of poker being rigged and defend its integrity is not in the best interest of poker players. I dont know how you can justify for yourself what you are really doing. Not just what you are doing right here today, but what you have done for several years now.
The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition Quote

      
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