Wrong.

Lizard people do not wear coats or dark glasses.

Well, I can't tell you the exact mechanism, only poker site programmers know that...
There is many ways, how to make it work. Did actually anybody independent see the poker site's software and the exact algorithm, how "random" numbers (cards) are generated? Do we even know, is the whole deck generated at once (before dealing hole cards), or can community cards be generated later?
I feel it works somehow like this:
every player is given something like "luck index", which is changing, depending of the player's bankroll progress. Depending on that index, player will be running into more or less profitable situations, depending also on the luck index(es) of player(s) he faces on the table or during certain hand (that's why we often go crazy, when we can't beat someone on the table, who plays awfully, but gets lucky too often - he just seems to have better luck index at the moment).

OK, you might say that's all just variance, but it seems clear the variance somehow has too long periods. Why should I run something like 20K hands like God, with no bad beats, hitting draws, holding vs. draws, winning flips etc., and then 10K hands completely opposit? If random, it should be aproximatelly mixed up, and yes, it is mixed up maybe even majority of the time, but at some point of bankroll progress there is always a magic turnover, when everything goes terrible and very quickly down (for example I experience 5 suckouts in 10 minutes, which I would experience in maybe 10
hours of play at good times). At those moments I feel very clearly something has changed somewhere on the server and I am not allowed to win any more, no matter what I do. If random, the variance would never go such a selective way.
In the end, really good players make profit and bad ones lose, just the way it happens is much more spectacular than it would be if dealing random all the time. Those 10K-50K periods are still too short for making any serious statistical analysis, so the sites can't be caught (maybe they can be, but I am not such a statistical expert to make it).

Confirmed: it chafes their scales.

You feel that way because it is in human nature to try to make sense out of the world and we are tuned to look for patterns in events.

Everything you describe is entirely explainable by chance and happens in live games exactly the same (though not as quickly). Get a pack of cards and deal out loads of hands and you'll see the same thing.

Yesterday I was playing 4 tables, and got Ah Kc on two tables at the same time (both on the button, both hands dealt within a split second of each other). It immediately jumped out to me as significant and connected - the brain is great at spotting coincidences and very quick to draw inferences from just one or two observations, but it's just a feature of the way the mind works.

Incidentally it's a feature that is essential for learning - someone notices that every time someone eats a specific mushroom they get ill and die. But it also creates superstition - someone notices that after people put their shoes on a table, people in the house get ill and die - so putting shoes on a table is unlucky (which is a good practical solution, until we learn that the real cause is pathogens and the solution is basic food hygiene). Or someone notices they win a tournament when they're wearing a particular shirt, etc, etc.

So it's an important feature of the mind, but one that can trick us into seeing connections and causality that don't exist.

This is an important point and kills the rigging argument stone dead all by itself. Anyone who has worked in any organisation will realise it's a difficult enough task to keep everyone working to the same agenda, and to keep legitimate secrets from leaking. And this is with all the legal protection companies have against employees leaking their legitimate secrets - protection they don't have for illegal activities. The idea that an illegal conspiracy, which would need to include many employees as well as auditors, regulators and disgruntled ex-employees, could be kept secret is laughable. It would only take one whistle-blower to blow the whole thing wide apart.

Sure the conspiracy-plotters getting caught is a valid point, but its not the primary one. The allegation here is that that mysterious-smart programmers can just create an algorithm that coordinates 10,000s hands at a time in a manner that rigs them but also produces at the end statistical results that look like expectation. Not a single stats guy has said that this is possible, and al the stats guys have said that its not. When you think of the number of hands that go on every hour (anyone who has been keeping an eye on the PS milestone hands this past week will have a pretty good idea at the astonishing number of hands that get dealt every hour) the calculations to even have a chance at this would seem to me to be extremely complex. So its making these calculations, every hand, for every player, thousands of times a second, and it doesn't crash the system, and works without fail so that every statistical study show up at expectation? Hard to believe.

One can't just posit some mysterious forumla and declare that as a reason for thinking its rigged.

Especially since the vast majority of riggies believe its rigged because of what they've seen at the table. If its not detectable by statistical analysis, then you sure as heck won't be able to detect it just by playing.

I have made a salient point several times in this thread but it has, of course, been studiously ignored by the riggies.

If you are going to rig the deal in some way there must be some intended result, otherwise, what is the point of rigging the deal?

Further, that result must be noticeable - else, again, what is the point of rigging the deal.

And if the result is noticeable then it must, by definition, be detectable because to notice something is to detect it.

Thus, it is impossible to rig the deal in to achieve some purpose, to an extent that it is significant, and yet not have it noticeable and thus detectable.

I think Vit makes some points, but goth has good arguments here. I've seen a lot of strange things, but it seems like at some point people would be talking. Maybe there is an industry standard that sites, their employees, and auditors see as being kosher, though.

This. The only rational explanation is that people making these observations and jumping to rigging conclusions are deluded. And there is plenty known now about the way the human brain works to know exactly the mechanisms through which they trick themselves into seeing patterns that aren't there. It doesn't mean they're mad, it's just the way the brain works and we're all susceptible to these cognitive illusions. It's like an optical illusion, but based on our tendency to look for patterns in events as part of our coding mechanism to reduce the complexity of the world around us to a set of manageable concepts. If things seem like they're related, we lump them together (it's called "chunking") so we don't have to think of them separately any more. This is why we naturally think in terms of "runs" of hands that are good or bad. In reality, cards don't work like that.

How do you distinguish, which patterns are right and which are not? I still didn't see any concrete statistical analysis, which would explain somehow deeper, what happens during the session(s). For example, how often should it happen, during 2K hands 6 max, that when I hit the set, it get's action (all in) only in cases I am beat or outdrawn. There can be found many similar examples, which include not only all in evaluation, but consider cards dealt to other players too. And that's actually quite a crucial thing to be considered - I hit good hands during those very bad periods too, but other players are dealt cards that I either get no action, or I am beat. All that happens very quickly and has a big impact to my bankroll, so we would have to find out some very advanced analysis to figure that out.

The fact there is a huge variance in poker doesn't prove it's not rigged. I heard the argument "why would they do that, it's not worthy to risk reputation, they make much money anyway", but they did (FTP) much worse thing - they have "stolen" the money, which should cover all player's balances. So, why should I believe their software is correct then?

You could take a look at ispokerrigged.com.

There you'll find statistical studies of millions of hands dealt at several poker sites to look for rigging. And you can download a tool that allows you to analyse your own hand histories.

Yeah this happens to all of us, and it's easy to take it personally - we are wired to do that so we can adapt our behaviour quickly to make the best of new situations. Like I said it happens in live games too, and it happens if you do all the dealing yourself.

Really, try it, deal three hands and a board and note which player wins - do it 100 times (shuffling properly between each hand) and you will see it doesn't look random from the perspective of each player, even though you know it is random. One will run good and one will run bad. It doesn't take long.

Stuff makes a lot more sense if you can ever remove yourself from the position of being the main character in the entire world.

Bad management happens all the time and generally they eventually face consequences, as we are seeing with UB and Full Tilt. Many other poker rooms have dies in the past as well for similar reasons.

Detailed conspiracies to screw you in freerolls that require hundreds or thousands of insiders to be in on it makes no sense unless you are the main character in all of humanity. Sorry- you aint.

You can try to combine the two all you like, but they are completely different realities at work, only one of which is based on actual reality. If you wish to believe it is rigged against you that is your right, just as many people believe they are always being watched (and would be crushed once they realize nobody cares enough to watch them).

All the best.

So how come colonel sanders reciepe is still secret?

Because the recipe is not illegal and they limit the number of people who know it to those who have a vested interest in the success of the business and they send the seasoning ready-mixed out to the franchises. Anyone who did take the recipe out of the business, and any other business that received it, would be committing a criminal act. And the recipe itself is copyrighted, so nobody else could reproduce it without a licence from KFC.

Anyway, I already figured out what the secret active ingredient is a long time ago when I was "experimenting" with exotic herbs and spices. Since I worked it out for myself, I can tell you without fear of prosecution. But I'm not sure if this forum is the right place for such a big revelation - what do you think? Want to know?

Yes, the mix of herbs and spices may be 'secret' in that they haven't told anyone but it's also ridiculously easy to recreate - and it's also easy to improve upon. The 'secret' is just marketing 'puff'.

I don't think so, because no other fried chicken tastes - or has the same effect (this is important) - like KFC.

OK - here it is - Kava. Stick a spoonful of that in any of the "real" KFC coating recipes you can find online and you get something very like the genuine article. It's like the coke in Coca Cola, except that it's a legal foodstuff.

Methinks the great KFC-is-rigged debate just began and ended right here.

I agree you are studiously ignored by riggies and shills alike but not for your oh-so-obvious observation.

The only point of rigging the deal is if it increases profits to the company or a select few employees (as in the superuser scandals).

Increased rake, increased traffic due to "the most exciting poker on-line", increased income from deposits (or interest). It was also benefit a site to increase churn in increase the stream (volume) of rake.

I suppose rigging to decrease the time a tournament takes to lower its operating expenses would also benefit the profit motive of the company.

I don't believe any of these profit motive benefits of rigging are measured in spade, LA or anyone else's studies even if they are noticable. Unless you know of some. So, could there be a noticable result? Yes. Has anyone measured it? No.

If by results you mean how it affects the game, obviously 1/3 of people that have voted in the poll believe they have seen the results of rigging.


Agreed. Detectable and provable (to some standard) are not the same.

Correct, if one is noticing and detecting the right things. Now give a person trying to notice or detect a rig limited or incomplete information....

But simple enough to be clear to you

But enough of an expert to analyse it, in your head, from memory, over a long period of time and announce it over the internet

How many of those 1800 people have even explained exactly what they have seen, let alone provided data to back it up?

yeah keep it up with you feeling and imagination.

READ post #36821. Especially the answers from jjjou812. Ignore what you have read in between the post above and this post. You need to know this thread in infiltrated with site promoters, a poker coach, and ignorant dreamers, and maybe a poker site affiliate. Also a thing called a Wiki, which nobody really knows what that is. They will feed you all kind of lies to throw you off. Wanted to advise you of this, because youre probably confused at this point. Believe me, the deal is manipulated in OLP. There is no doubt about it.

Stop quoting him already :P



Super users as well as bad management have nothing to do with an artificial rig of the deal.

That's why sites invent things like rush poker, hyper turbos, multiple entry tournaments, no limit Omaha 8 etc.

None of the rigs the riggies have proposed even make extra money, and all rigs run the risk of being caught.

I agree the sites want to increase how much money they make, that's kind of what businesses do, but their products, promotions and services do this without the risk of the entire business being destroyed if discovered or revealed.

Super users cheating players as fast as possible makes sense as a crime. Sites doing boom switches and doomswitches in freerolls and 2 buck tournaments does not.


That's why they invent turbos and super turbos and multiple entry tournaments which do the job far more effectively without any risk.



I cannot disprove a fantasy rigging theory. Any rigging theory requires hundreds of insiders to keep the secret until their death, so has zero insiders with proof of rigging demonstrated that the game is not rigged or that hundreds of these guys all keep the secret?

Eventually common sense needs to be a factor for those genuine about the debate.

If you or any other riggie could develop a riggie theory that actually definitely makes money at least that would be a starting point to build on, however all riggie theories are generally of the variety of prove something mystical does not exist instead of one of "this is how a site can make more money with detailed proof through examples and a methodology for how it can be scaled for millions of players easily.


1 in 4 Americans thinks George Bush destroyed the twin towers.


You know I am rooting for you and suggesting you be the riggie leader, but you or another riggie need to come up with a premise that is a money maker for the site that has specifics that can be shown and proven. Once any riggie does that I will do my best to help that theory along. For now all riggie theories involve "them" or "the sites" doing magic that is undetectable except when riggies watch the game. Help them down the right path!

Or you can make your own observations as recommended by blatantly rigged and find out for yourself.

Following this recommendation has been enlightening.

P.S. My observation does not support BR's bull$hit

Where the lie in this? when we ask evidence before you labeling OLP. Don't say you already done this if true prove it!
Btw in the zoo they have also a thread about PokerStars shill and this thread has never been closed or merged so why you don't make a thread about the site promoters. Good luck coward.


P.S Return to school you need it! Maybe you will gain some social skills and learn how to convince people with good argument.

I took a look a little bit - they just analyze all-ins pf from big HH samples and compare results, if they match expected numbers. I didn't say it's rigged in such a way - over a big sample of hands and different players, it will always look as random. What I am saying is: the sites are manipulating player's success in short-medium term, which looks as random over longer period.