Bravo ydward you are the first to be added in my ignore list strictly reserve for ppl with IQ below 60

The freeroll he is posting hands has 72 prizes, each being an entry into a $2000 freeroll that will have probably 10,000 people in it, so let's be generous and say it is 30 cents overlay per person in it.

so 72 prizes of 30 cents, that's about $23 but hey lets round it up to $30 to be even nicer.

9,000 people are playing for these prizes.

I never bothered to look at the "overlay" of the freerolls on Stars before now but the fact that 9,000 people will join a tournament with 1/3 of a cent overlay (with generous assumptions) is kind of amazing and it shows why Stars and other sites spend a lot of time trying to convert these guys into rake paying customers.

Given the whinespew we see here, imagine if Josem actually shared some of the emails he received (with names removed) from the play money and freeroll players. I can imagine many would be quite entertaining.

A test.
[http://www.thehandconverter.com/hands/891965

Poker Stars Freeroll No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds + t15 - 8 players - View hand 891965
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): t17585 M = 50.97
BB: t6004 M = 17.40
UTG: t30 M = 0.09
UTG+1: t8930 M = 25.88
MP1: t655 M = 1.90
MP2: t4225 M = 12.25
CO: t75 M = 0.22
BTN: t15505 M = 44.94

Pre Flop: (t345) Hero is SB with A T
3 folds, MP2 raises to t750, 3 folds, BB raises to t5989 all in, MP2 calls t3460 all in

Flop: (t8615) 5 6 5 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t8615) 9 (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t8615) 3 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Test two

Poker Stars Freeroll No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds + t15 - 8 players - View hand 891965
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): t17585 M = 50.97
BB: t6004 M = 17.40
UTG: t30 M = 0.09
UTG+1: t8930 M = 25.88
MP1: t655 M = 1.90
MP2: t4225 M = 12.25
CO: t75 M = 0.22
BTN: t15505 M = 44.94

Pre Flop: (t345) Hero is SB with A T
3 folds, MP2 raises to t750, 3 folds, BB raises to t5989 all in, MP2 calls t3460 all in

Flop: (t8615) 5 6 5 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t8615) 9 (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t8615) 3 (2 players - 2 are all in)

After having one gut shot after another fill against me today, I decided to do something I don't usually do- call to one myself- and guess what? Caught the online donk snack!

Poker Stars Freeroll No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds + t10 - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: t19433 M = 129.55
SB: t67 M = 0.45
BB: t79 M = 0.53
UTG: t5175 M = 34.50
Hero (MP): t3114 M = 20.76
CO: t15158 M = 101.05

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is MP with J T
UTG calls t60, Hero calls t60, 1 fold, BTN raises to t120, 2 folds, UTG calls t60, Hero calls t60

Flop: (t510) 8 6 Q (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets t120, UTG calls t120, Hero calls t120

Turn: (t870) 9 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t120, BTN raises to t480, UTG folds, Hero raises to t2864 all in, BTN calls t2384

River: (t6598) J (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t6598
BTN shows 6 6 (three of a kind, Sixes)
Hero shows J T (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Hero wins t6598

Hey, I am willing to learn. Detail which of those hands you looked at and tell me how I could have won them rather than lose my chips.

Some deals are just too contrived for belief, but I have seen hands like this almost every hour on Fulltilt for 4 years.
Full Tilt Poker $150 Freeroll Pot Limit Omaha Hi Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: t1260 42 BBs
UTG: t1005 33.50 BBs
UTG+1: t5070 169 BBs
Hero (UTG+2): t1230 41 BBs
MP1: t1020 34 BBs
MP2: t405 13.50 BBs
CO: t1485 49.50 BBs
BTN: t1455 48.50 BBs
SB: t1425 47.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is UTG+2 with Q 9 9 Q
UTG raises to t105, UTG+1 raises to t360, 1 fold, MP1 calls t360, MP2 raises to t405 all in, 1 fold, BTN calls t405, SB raises to t1425 all in, 1 fold, UTG calls t900 all in, UTG+1 calls t1065, MP1 calls t660 all in, BTN calls t1020

Flop: (t6735) T 6 A (6 players - 4 are all in)
UTG+1 checks, BTN bets t30 all in, UTG+1 calls t30

Turn: (t6795) 9 (6 players - 5 are all in)

River: (t6795) 2 (6 players - 5 are all in)

Final Pot: t6795
UTG shows A K T K (two pair, Aces and Tens)
UTG+1 shows Q 5 Q 5 (a pair of Queens)
MP1 shows 8 T 8 2 (two pair, Tens and Twos)
MP2 shows J 4 4 J (a flush, Jack high)
BTN shows J A J 6 (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
SB shows 7 K K 7 (a pair of Kings)
BTN wins t60
BTN wins t1215
BTN wins t60
UTG wins t3000
MP2 wins t2460

Another contrived deal you could see through like it was glass, unfortunately, the guys with the bad flopped flush couldn't. The other player on the flop who folded claimed he missed a winning runner runner boat of sixes full of aces, but I don't know if he was just adding to all of our amusement.

Full Tilt Poker $150 Freeroll Pot Limit Omaha Hi Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (SB): t956 19.12 BBs
BB: t2660 53.20 BBs
UTG: t5079 101.58 BBs
UTG+1: t3333 66.66 BBs
UTG+2: t1320 26.40 BBs
MP1: t2065 41.30 BBs
MP2: t1305 26.10 BBs
CO: t6433 128.66 BBs
BTN: t13163 263.26 BBs

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is SB with T Q 2 8
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, 1 fold, CO calls t50, BTN calls t50, Hero calls t25, BB checks

Flop: (t300) 5 6 K (6 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t50, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t50, CO calls t50, BTN raises to t550, Hero folds, BB raises to t2050, MP1 calls t1965 all in, CO folds, BTN raises to t3550, BB calls t560 all in

Turn: (t7585) 6 (3 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t7585) A (3 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: t7585
BB shows 3 3 4 J (a flush, King high)
MP1 shows 4 K 9 A (a flush, Ace high)
BTN shows Q 8 2 T (a flush, King high)
BTN wins t1190
MP1 wins t6395

And, per usual, they finally got me in a hand I was never going to get away from, but it isn't like I don't see this every other day in this tourney.

Full Tilt Poker $150 Freeroll Pot Limit Omaha Hi Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t1230 20.50 BBs
BB: t1275 21.25 BBs
UTG: t5941 99.02 BBs
UTG+1: t1230 20.50 BBs
UTG+2: t1245 20.75 BBs
MP1: t1215 20.25 BBs
MP2: t9350 155.83 BBs
Hero (CO): t1568 26.13 BBs
BTN: t8807 146.78 BBs

Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is CO with 4 J J 3
UTG calls t60, 3 folds, MP2 calls t60, Hero calls t60, BTN calls t60, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t330) 6 3 J (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets t330, Hero raises to t1320, BTN folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP2 raises to t2310, Hero calls t188 all in

Turn: (t3346) K (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t3346) 6 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t3346
MP2 shows 6 A 6 J (four of a kind, Sixes)
Hero shows 4 J J 3 (a full house, Jacks full of Sixes)
MP2 wins t3346

Golf clap.jpg.

lol not sure why we're bothering to help him post converted histories when posting any hand histories at all in this thread is still completely off topic and results in pure spam

No, I get the point. You are all saying that I am confusing playing bad and running bad. I'm not. If you think that distinction isn't crystal clear to any reasonably competent poker player, then I apologize. I mischaracterized you all: you're not societal rejects, you’re intellectual rejects.

I'm an Occam's razor guy too: If the cards look like they're running fixed for month's on end - meaning your 80% are only holding up 20% of the time, or worse - then the obvious answer is the only one. You can characterize these horrendous, mind-boggling runs of bad cards as variance aberrations, but there are thousands of competent poker players who see it for what it is: manipulated RNG/software.

Report him, already done it ;d

yeah I report him every time I see him post a wall of hand histories... I'm sure the mods have more important things to deal with but geez, even in this thread it just completely derails any attempt at rational discussion

Exactly. Which is why this didn't happen

He's probably going to get banned anyway, might as well keep him from hurting peoples eyes until then.

People lie all the time, sometimes even when they think they are telling the truth.

The beauty of database programs is that they are not driven by emotional needs like humans (you for instance).

You expect people to believe you at face value when you make silly claims that can be easily proven with a database of hands, yet you do not provide the database of hands to validate your claims.

You may as well claim you can fly.

If you are a victim of all this nonsense as you claim let me make these suggestions:

Offer insane prop bets of your claims (since you know by watching and remembering that they are true)

Then provide a large HH database as evidence. I have faith that the stats guys would be able to determine if you fiddled with them at all (and if it was large enough the effort would be insane to do so anyway).

Make a ton of money as I am sure many of the shills, myself included would give you several thousands if not tens of thousands of action on your bets assuming you put it in escrow and followed some basic guidelines (which would be reasonable).


Tell me Razor man - you have just been told how to make a ton of money if what you are claiming is actually true. All you need is simple proof that everyone playing can accumulate easily.

If you continue to refuse to prove what you say or even make money through proving what you say, how exactly should others use the fancy razor to determine which is correct

a) An absurd claim which is true but you refuse to believe

b) You are lying - either with intent or without intent


By the way, I can fly.


All the best.

You didn't get the point, which is why you made the following posts:

Now you are a little closer to getting the point but you still aren't quite there. You aren't confusing the concept of running bad and playing bad you are simply focusing far too much on running bad to disguise your frustration that you don't have the edge you think you deserve.

This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that you have again made a wild accusation, that your 80%s hold up only 20% of the time (which I'm sure was just said for dramatic effect). So either:

a) This is actually happening and you can easily prove it. You will have made the "shills" look like gullible morons but you will still have their apologies and full support in exposing the evil sites.

b) You are lying just like the rest of the rigtards and we can only assume it is because you are trying to disguise your frustration that you don't have the competitive edge you think you deserve. Unless you have another explanation?

Well since you've posted nothing but spam I highly doubt many of us have actually bothered to read your hand histories. Also based on you irrational behavior it would be a complete waste of time to actually try to teach you how to play better poker.

If you really are willing to learn though, may I suggest one of the coaching threads...

He is playing 1/3 cent freerolls years into his career and still whining about hands that he plays very badly (basic hints to the spam donk- you are a calling station that fancy plays too much and loses value all over the place).

He is nowhere close to being ready to be coached. He has no money except for maybe the buck and a half he has accumulated over the years freerolling.

Hell, he would have more to play with than his entire life earnings if he did a simple instant bankroll promotion. Guess he should try that if anything, and then whine about how he lost his $50-75 he gets for free when donking it up.

This guy will spam until he is banned and then he will be forgotten just like the other bad beat whiners.

I look at him more as an indication why poker will always be profitable. Guys like this play. For years. Some actually play for money.

Add to it that this guy think he may have some skill so you combine delusional thinking with money and anyone who is ready to capitalize on that situation can do well (with the issue being competing with the other predators).

Well since you asked so nicely.
Flatting the flop with the idiot end of a straight is pretty dumb. Either raise or fold.
You had to call 120 here and the pot was 750. You're getting ~5 to 1, and you have at least 3 clean outs. Against 2 random hands (and this is a freeroll, so it's a legit range) you're about 33%, so you're getting more than the right odds to make your "donk call" Why the **** would you donk 2 bbs on the turn when you hit your gutshot? Never mind, if you knew that you wouldn't still be playing Stars freerolls after knowing about 2+2 for 2 years.

Small Stakes MTT

I know making your first post in an actual strategy forum is scary, but, YOU CAN DO IT!!

This is called "results oriented thinking" and based on the hands you posted, it's a huge part of the reason you are still trying to lucksack your way through freerolls against thousands of other donks.

The point is NOT the handful of coolers you spammed this thread with, the point is all the times your hand holds up and you fail to extract full value because you're not playing to win. You're playing to not lose. You're too busy hiding from monsters to ever be a hero.

One of the big reasons you are bad at poker is that you are not making enough from your winning hands to compensate for when you get hosed. Everybody gets sucked out on, the good players win in the long run anyway. The bad players use it as an excuse.

This is a thread from a cash game perspective (hey, I have an easier time finding my own threads rather than threads in a forum I don't read - sue me!) but it's all about this problem:

Concept of the week #10 Value Betting

Please note this quote:

If you are already predisposed to be a whiner who believes the world is conspiring against you, 30% can easily start to look like 50%. Or more (people are very, very bad at these kinds of estimations. That means you. That means me.) And if you actually are running bad, that 30% can easily be stretches of 40%+. Which can easily seem like 60% or 70%. And then "ZOMG So Rigged!" you're posting in this thread rather than doing something productive like improving your game.

If you actually want to work your way out of this rut, I strongly suggest you stop wasting your time here and instead start posting in the MTT forum linked previous but even more importantly, post in this one:

Beginners Questions

It's a very good forum. I hear the management there is top notch.

Posting selected losing hands doesn't support your claim that the site is rigged, ever. Please stop.


It makes you all look like idiots (those doing it) and nobody cares. If you want to accumulate stats on them and post that, people might be mildly interested.

A couple of thoughts...

The debate about online poker being rigged has gone on since day one. As a long time player, I am very aware that with a huge influx of beginning players, the occurance of bad beats and deviations will increase dramatically. IMHO, 99% of what I see online about poker being rigged are usually just guys talking about bad beats. Some specific hands are so clearly JUST a bad beat, that I am surprised people would question them at all, ie: AA getting beat by smaller pair or straight.

But as a long time player I have noticed a couple of interesting and possibly disturbing trends. I've been playing for over 30 years in brick and mortar poker rooms. In all that time, I have only heard of cheats perhaps 2-3 times and always either 2 guys working a squeeze type situation or some kind of chip swindle.

But does it not bother anyone that since the explosion of online poker, the complaints of rigged sites goes way beyond a few guys talking about bad beats or running bad. There's a great deal of these complaints all over the web. And with any "computer" generated game comes the inevitable person/persons who will find a way to use that system to his/her advantage as we all saw with UB/Absolute. My understanding is that those situations were all cheating by outside hacking. But it would be very easy to insert a program into the computer to benefit the site. And because of the general nature of poker and it's natural abundance of bad beats, it would be very hard to prove a case of rigged games.

I guess I'm basically a cynic but it seems to me with all the crooks in the world like Madoff, Enron, etc. the likelyhood of an offshore poker site rigging their computers seems not only probable but almost likely. And when I hear people say "why would they do it? They make so much as it is". The answer is obvious... with very little work, that profit could be doubled and no one would ever know or suspect. If an online site were simply to place a bot who places in the top 5 in each event, the profit margin would double, at minimum. And no one is likely to scream about a guy(bot) finishing 5th out of 200.

As I said, I've played this game for many, many years and also dealt poker for more than 5 years. My suspicions about poker rigging don't make me look for a guy winning bad beats or too many hands that shouldn't but instead, for unusual variations like someone who plays nearly perfect, then playng a hand completely out of character. Or someone calling with holdings that even a beginner wouldn't do. And I have to be honest when I say that I see things in online poker that I simply never saw in live poker.

A few of the trends that I do see that are questionablee...

A very bad player who wins more than he likely should (that's what all these complaints are right?) but who NEVER chats.

The same player who ALWAYS acts in the same amount of time, ie: a 1&1/2 to 2 second delay before acting. (if you look, a human will vary greatly in their reaction time, but I've seen some players who are like clocks)

Players who win a disportionate amount of inferior hands, but only when a different player is allin with fewer chips.

Then there are the results variations. With all the available tracking sites, it's easy to look up players. I've noticed a great many large winning players with very little history. (the opposite of this is live players who can not duplicate live results online... that is my own personal situation. I've had positive results for so manny years and I track everything. The results are remarkably steady in live, and drastically varied online. And that's the same complaint I hear from solid winning players.)

These are the ones that stand out to me. We all see bad beats. We all see ridiculous calls. But when I see things online that I do not see in live, then I have to question why. It isn't as simple as having a huge influx of newbies. The games are still played the exact same way. Therefore, it's only reasonable to assume that the results should also be similar.

Up until today, I've only seen 1 or 2 actual that were TRULY suspect. Most are too typical as bad beats to question. And I, like everyone else, simply can't prove anything. The one part of all this that is also very curious is that IF there are rigged poker sites, why haven't we seen statistical proof posted online? Surely, with all the poker tracking software in use, we should be able to see actual deviations that go beyond the expected norm.

I have my suspicions. On the one hand, there has not been any proof of rigging, just some cases of outside hacking. On the other hand, however, there are simply too many complaints to dismiss it. And with the way online poker is basically untouchable as far as a regulating oversight, and the way man's typical behavior is often greed oriented, I can't say I would be surprised if proof were presented.

If it's possible to rig poker, it's likely being done. To ignore the possibility would be naive.

oh god

Im so glad I skipped to the last line in the post. tl;dr

You are right, of course.

Just compare win rates. Most live poker is 9 - 10 handed. Look at PTR and compare the highest winrates at $00.01/00.02 full ring, versus $1/2 at the casino. The better live players far exceed the smallest micro guys online..

The top 5% of $1/2 live players' winrate doubles the top 5% of 0.01/0.02 online players, yet they pay twice the percentage of rake AND have a bbj drop,AND tip a buck when they win a pot.

Maybe online is clean, but the play is so good that 0.01/0.02 plays tougher than $1/2 live, without accounting for the double rake, bbj , and the tips.

Surprise, surprise.

Except that, were it being rigged, it would be absurdly easy to provide evidence.

No evidence has been forthcoming.

Therefore we default to the logical stance: Probably not rigged.

An outright lie.

It's always possible and any evidence will be examine dispassionately.

Wrong!

Clue: Possible != Likely

Easy to do and hard to prove. Please feel free to elaborate.

You just made up that number, right?

One bot? Maybe not, but the risk reward ratio isnt really right, is it? Start adding some more bots and people will start getting suspicious. How are you guaranteeing a bot finishes 5th anyway? I think you mean rigging it for particular players which is a whole different story anyway. You're just pulling random theories and terms out of your ass without thinking aren't you?

If you worked as a dealer I'm sure there were ways you and your employer could have cheated your customers. Is it fair for me to say I wouldnt be surprised if you did this, with no evidence?

Produce some stats for this player who plays bad and wins

Please shock us with some more graphs and stats

All that guy is is a geezer who was probably afraid of fax machines in the 90s and Big Brother in the 80s. He is not even much of a riggie as his paranoia (actually more distrust) comes from a long life with minimal meaning.

I am sure he has equivalent theories about all sorts of things, and asking him for a graph of anything is silly as he has never graphed anything in his life.

Ten to twenty years from now he will be Grampa Simpson.