imo, it doesn't make any difference if a tourney is $300+20 house+10 dealers for 20k chips or $300+20 house for 10k chips, optional $10 dealers for 10k chips.

What does that even mean? What difference? I'm trying to see in what way these structures are the same other than the prices are equal and they have the same starting chip stack assuming the person in the second tournament is a rational actor.

Just my opinion, but I think stressing the unequal playing field aspect would carry more weight than the collusion aspect. And how if you dont pay the tip you are at a decided disadvantage to those who do. But Collusion is usually associated with something done by the colluding parties in secret to gain an advantage. The add on is done in the open so it's not really collusion. So stressing collusion may confuse them and the discussion may get wrapped around what is collusion rather than whether the addon is fair or not.

Just my two cents worth.

I agree with you. I'm not saying this is collusion in any sense. I'm saying it gives an appearance of collusion because at the end of the tournament the people who tipped will be more likely to still be in the game (assuming equal skill) because they started the tournament with more BB/Chips/LottoTix than the non-tippers. A noob who maybe doesn't completely grasp everything could look at this and say to himself, "self, I think the dealers are favoring those idiots who tipped the dealers. The dealers must be colluding with those players. This is unfair." I am sure you can see how a noob could possibly have this thought and never come back because he thought he got hoodwinked.

Sir I do not dispute that the dealers are taxed by the IRS, the state and I would assume whatever municipality they live and/or work in and their home countries if applicable. My point is that the casino is taking a fee which should be included as an item of income, taxed to the casino. The casino is free to pay that out and take a deduction against its gross income. There is a scam being played there.

Thanks for your well wishes though I suspect they were made in jest.

So, you go to a restaurant.
Bill is $50.
You pay by credit card.
You add $10 tip on the card.

By your logic, the restaurant, who gets the additional $10 from the credit card company, should declare that as income and the $10 they turn over to the server should be declared as an expense.

No completely different scenario under the code and regs. Tips are by definition not payment for the provision of goods or services. In this situation, the payment of the dealer add-on fee results in the provision of extra chips from the payee. I don't get any thing more from the restaurant or server, even if I tip an outrageous amount like in your example.

Again, I think you are wasting your time, and are actually going t make more enemies in the process, but if you dont care about that, whatever. I will tell you though that if you are against a $300+$20+$10(optional), that is going to become a $300 +$30 and then the very very small minority who didnt want to pay the extra $10 before is going to be forced to now, and the dealers will still make the same regardless.

It might be income, but Im guessing that is debatable since it is ear marked for the dealers, but it isnt profit to be taxed since every dollar in is going right back out to the dealers. There is no scam here and to argue that is further clouding your already murky position

I don't care about making enemies with poker dealers or floormen if it involves doing the right thing. I don't see many of them killing my long-term political aspirations or sabotaging any of my business ventures. It's not like they are Rockefellers or something.

Payroll taxes sir, payroll taxes.

I think you underestimate the profession. It is a skilled position that requires practice to become efficient. The good dealers make it look easy and enjoyable for the players. You've said that dealers shouldn't make much more than minimum wage and that dealing poker is pretty easy. I would guess that you've never dealt before.

I also find it interesting that you don't think there is a difference between dealers. Almost anyone who plays a reasonable amount will take notice of the best dealers and the worst dealers. The good dealers kind of go unnoticed but the best and worst often stick out.

So let me get this straight you would be willing to possibly cause the dealers to lose an income source just to further your political ambition? Sounds like you will make a fabulous politician. But you obviously play live poker, so why would you want to take a chance and make enemies of the people who facilitate something you enjoy to do?

And for the record this is the first time you have mentioned payroll taxes. Every other time you referenced income tax. That is the reason for people making what you referred to as bad analogies, eventhough they were spot on

Not sure what the issue with payroll taxes is. When dealers get tips, they must report them to the employer and the employer must pay the employer part of payroll taxes on them. If the room charges a dealer add on, and then distributes that money to the dealers, it is classed as nontip wages, and the employer still pays the same payroll taxes on it.

This is ridiculous. There is no dealer/tipper collusion between those who pay the option and those who dont. Just like there is no collusion between dealers and tippers against non tippers in cash games. It doesnt happen. they may root against you, they may take backhanded shots at you, but there is no collusion.

An injustice?!?!?! Really? I think we are being a bit melodramatic here. My guess is that you could look at Ohio's annual budget and much more egregious injustices in there that cost people a lot more money than this, but I guess since it doesnt effect you directly, you wont bother.

If you really believe that having good dealers or doesnt matter, and they are all the same, you are seriously delusional. Just ask anyone at the WSOP about the difference and see what they say. Or since you only seem to focused on things concerning you, remember back to when a dealer error cost you a big pot or killed your action. It sucked didnt it? Now imagine that happeneing multiple times a night because of weak dealers.

Sorry for being imprecise in my language.


I do not want to do this to advance my political career, in fact my political aspirations have to do with being appointed ambassador to an African nation, not really sure how my doing this will help or harm those goals. I really just think it is unfair and misleading. I saw a 22 year old kid show up, his first tournament ever and was crippled because he brought exactly the buy-in not understanding what the add-on was about. This kid was no dumby, he was getting his MBA at Ohio State and will eventually have money some day based on how he conducted himself in our conversation.

It's kids/noobs like that who we need to keep in the game, not make the game require as much understanding to get started. One of the beauties of poker is, unlike chess, no matter your relative skill-level you have a chance of winning. When noobs win they stick around maybe develop a love for the game and join the community. When things are confusing this doesn't happen.

Profession? Puh-lease. Dealing is a job not a profession. Being a doctor is a profession, being a lawyer is a profession, dealing requires no formal training though I guess most of the time dealers have done a short training course of some sort. Any one can be a dealer with decent eyesight and dexterity. I've even seen dealers in wheelchairs. There is no difference in dealers, some may care about being employed more than others and thus maybe deal MARGINALLY faster or are more "friendly" but those traits don't justify much more compensation. In fact, I find the extremely chatty dealers to be an annoyance because I'm not a rude person and whenever someone talks to me I will continue speaking until they are done talking. More often than not, I am praying for new dealer 5 minutes after a chatty dealer sits down. I am there to gamboooooool, not listen to the musings of someone intellectually inferior. I could have stayed home and listened to my wife if I wanted to do that.

All dealers make mistakes, how about we just get electronic tables if you want to eliminate mistakes? I guarantee you won't support that idea.

Wow!!! Well as I am for sure one of your intelectual inferiors the same as your wife, Ill keep this last point short and then be done because I dont want to force you to deal with my commonness. How can you in one paragraph say you are looking out for the poker community as a whole, and then in the next paragraph totally demean the dealers who are an essential part of this community that you are the crusader for? But whatever strokes your ego I guess. Good day, sir

Electronic poker tables would solve this whole problem. Why are dealers even around when they got robots for them?

OK, I think this discussion has run its course. Nothing kills a poker discussion like bringing in wives and politics. And there is a separate containment thread for the electronic table v live table debate. So if anyone wants to add anything to the dealer add on topic itself, fine. Otherwise let's drop the other stuff.

Thanks.

OK, I tried but it didn't work. So I deleted all the posts made after my warning.

DW, if you are seriously thinking about bringing up the electronic table thing to the board, I suggest you do a little searching and find the threads on them. The bottom line was that many poker rooms tried them a few years ago, and players refused to play them. If they wanted to play on a computer, they would stay home.

It didn't matter that they got more hands per hour or didn't have to tip. People hated them. No social interaction. Everyone just stared down at their screens and had no conversations with anyone at the table. It lacked many of the things people go to a live room for.

So that's the cliffs on electronic tables. But if you want to discuss that further, bump the containment thread and make your comments there. any additional comments on them here will be deleted.

Sigh. Good Game.

is there such a thing as over tipping a dealer?

I play with a dude who tips whole pots in 2/5. Granted he is probably one of the 100 richest people in Columbus. I think he does it like someone mentioned because he has a lot of money and no friends. It's very annoying playing with him. He should just light money on fire, would probably make the world a better place.

As long as you are happy and comfortable with it, no there isnt a such thing as overtipping. Now if you are seriously trying to make a living at poker r you feel pressure to increase the amount of your tips, then I would say yes there is

I have to ask this, and Im not trying to start a fight. What is the deal with your crusade against dealers and tips? Were you wronged by a dealer in a big pot or game? Are you just cheap and dont like to tip anyone?

the annoying thing about overtippers is that they set an unrealistic tipping standard for the rest of the table. even so, i don't really care

i tip my dealer a 100 at the end of my sessions
my friends all flip out and tilt and a lot of the people at the table tilt too

but the dealers truly appreciate it

even if it eats into my winrate i feel that i contribute more to society
that dealer has kids and a family and could use that 100$ more than me

also part of me does it to tilt the other people at the table kinda like a gaint FU to everyone that i just took their money gave it to the dealer and left


my friends are tripping out hard though about me tipping so much


what do you guys think am i being too generous?